From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Is Elisp really that slow? Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 13:54:15 +0200 Message-ID: <868sv9w8t4.fsf@zoho.eu> References: <20190502214006.4fdsinp7u5xuqvdv@Ergus> <20190503004416.xfuzzucflp6bxpuz@Ergus> <8736lm30lz.fsf@web.de> <864l61j04d.fsf@zoho.eu> <20190511073254.GB29829@tuxteam.de> <04187AB9-AD7D-492D-A890-BCB01848370C@icloud.com> <20190511075712.GD29829@tuxteam.de> <86a7fsfv1m.fsf@zoho.eu> <20190512075448.GA11650@tuxteam.de> <346107E9-590D-4A18-9152-ECFF36FC4EDC@icloud.com> <83r293bvok.fsf@gnu.org> <87ef53vihw.fsf@telefonica.net> <83mujrbsk7.fsf@gnu.org> <867eavywh1.fsf@zoho.eu> <837eaubesw.fsf@gnu.org> <86lfzawgb2.fsf@zoho.eu> <83y33a9y10.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="107834"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1 (gnu/linux) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue May 14 14:10:11 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hQWG2-000Rvh-Lq for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 14 May 2019 14:10:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47193 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hQWG1-0002WF-Hh for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 14 May 2019 08:10:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59965) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hQWEg-0001XR-7O for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 14 May 2019 08:08:50 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hQW0m-0002kW-Uh for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 14 May 2019 07:54:26 -0400 Original-Received: from [195.159.176.226] (port=41246 helo=blaine.gmane.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hQW0m-0002jQ-OJ for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 14 May 2019 07:54:24 -0400 Original-Received: from list by blaine.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hQW0k-000A9l-90 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 14 May 2019 13:54:22 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Cancel-Lock: sha1:WW19Uv3Gpo627FiVhBJCLNiTekg= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 195.159.176.226 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120364 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> OK, so if I understand you correctly we are >> not happy to be just an editor that writes >> code and then relies on other program to the >> rest, like compiling and debugging, only we >> do actually want that, but we want it to be >> more integrated? > > No, you misunderstood. We want these features > to be as programmers expect nowadays. > Whether some of the features depend on other > programs or not is immaterial, but if they > do, the respective Emacs front-ends should > provide what the users expect. > > GDB is not an IDE, it's a debugging engine. > It's okay to make an IDE whose debugging > facilities use GDB as their engine, but the > front end needs to provide the > functionalities expected from debugging > function in an IDE. Yes, that's what I meant. I never did lots'a debugging myself so perhaps I used the incorrect/misleading words. But that's what I meant. > And if GDB doesn't support some popular > language, like Python, we need an alternative > for those who want to develop Python > programs; we don't want to tell them to go to > the shell and invoke pdb as > a console program. Again, that's what I thought I said, or wanted to say - you are fine with using external programs to do things, which I think is 100% the right thing to do (to be), only you want it integrated with Emacs. Exactly what kind of integration, I don't know, as I lack experience doing that even as a user, _also_ I certainly don't feel there is _anything wrong at all_ to "to go to the shell and invoke pdb as a console program." I do such things all day every day and feel no need to change that. >> And we want more language-specific features >> like I guess Java has with Eclipse or C# >> with .NET/Mono? > > They are not language-specific features, they > are in general features needed in any language. OK, FTR "needed" isn't a word to my liking... But what I mean is they are language-specific in terms of how one would go about and implement them. font-lock and `forward-char' and much of Emacs isn't. And actually, _some_ of them features must really be language-specific also in the sense you refer to (which, I agree, is the correct literal interpretation of what I said) - right? Because I can't imagine you want all the same little helpers for every single language there is? >> And we also disregard things like Dired, >> Gnus, ERC, Emacs-w3m, and what have you, >> which are a great help when developing... if >> you don't talk to much instead of working, >> that is :$ >> >> We also disregard that when you work on >> a project there are often several languages >> involved, documentation, a home page, and so >> on and we have all that all in one house >> with the same finger-habits, help system, >> and extension/configuration interface. > > No, we don't disregard anything. But having > Dired or the other niceties is little comfort > if what you need is to refactor your code or > debug it. Right, but when we compare our editor to the supposedly superior ones [1], I mean. They are perhaps better IDEs in terms of _a single language_, but we are the better (the best?) "IDE" in terms of the whole computer! No doubt they will have an advantage for their particular language as they put all their effort into that and only that. I think that is completely natural: a young guy can be in terrific shape mentally and physically but not one such guy on the whole geosphere can be the best in every single Olympic discipline. Impossible! >> I think the whole (point) with Emacs is that >> it is ready for everything, with much the >> same approach. Want to learn a new language? >> You can start immediately, as you don't have >> to learn a new editor or "IDE" first! > > What if I don't want to learn a language, but > to program in it? I want the tools > programmers nowadays expect to have from an > environment that claims to be > for programmers. I never used those tools so I don't know what I'm missing. Programming in Emacs I've done in some 20ish languages with no problems - not form Emacs, at least :) Sure, I didn't do it with a deadline, a 40+h a work week, a deadline, and a I don't know how many digit salary. And this is probably part of the difference. I don't really care about being the best. I want to be something I like and enjoy. Emacs is certainly good enough for that. But I respect your efforts and different POV, for sure, and God willing I can find a spot to help you some day. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573