From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Icon designer wanted (Aquamacs Emacs) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:55:31 +0100 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <85ace9o6rg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <54321A2A-3F36-4416-B473-49AC11FF057F@gmail.com> <853bk5gwa8.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <792D87C1-B9A9-495E-9335-7139845D1CB0@gmail.com> <85fyo4zvei.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87sls47lvd.fsf@vh213602.truman.edu> <85wthftsme.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <874q4jrvcg.fsf@vh213602.truman.edu> <1136466925.401877.151800@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <85ek3msrqt.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1136545718.892745.304620@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1136555104 15646 80.91.229.2 (6 Jan 2006 13:45:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:45:04 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 06 14:45:01 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Eurto-0005Hw-1o for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 14:44:56 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Euru8-0005Yh-El for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 08:45:16 -0500 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.arcor.de!news.arcor.de!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:5HDDsmJbZ8AFkNJ2tyPM/OGDeNQ= Original-Lines: 125 Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: 06 Jan 2006 13:55:28 MET Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 8c241dbc.newsread4.arcor-online.net Original-X-Trace: DXC=1D[6EdM^b[3?0I78\m5cj::ejgIfPPld4jW\KbG]kaM8A@_25la3nb2; n:3:0>_iY:1_LiI6ENVa=3>5MOK` List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:32497 Archived-At: david.reitter@gmail.com writes: >> Get real. You are headed for permanent forking for the sake of a >> non-free platform. > > Don't worry, that won't happen unless I get more people (coders) > help me. I don't have the time to follow through with something like > that. Nobody has time enough to follow through with a fork in the long run. Even the once thriving XEmacs project (who once had significant company backing) is slowly being starved of active developers. That's exactly what makes it worrisome. >> A lot of multi-person projects have sunken into oblivion because >> past contributors changed their mind, could not be brought around, >> or even contacted anymore. > > OK, so what legal documents are there that I can make people sign, > say, for code that will not be integrated into a GNU project at this > time, but might be when the time comes? No fair, now I actually have to get out of rant mode. There are several options. The important thing is to realize that a copyright assignment covers specific code. Once the specific code is copyrighted by the FSF, the FSF is free to shift this code around within its property. I think it is reasonable to assume that you are not interested in having copyright from others assigned to yourself and then having to pass it on eventually. That means that any copyright assignments would have to be done with the FSF as a party. Even while copyright assigments are just for specific code, they identify the code by project to which is it contributed. If somebody has a copyright assignment for Emacs in case, that does not mean automatically that stuff he contributes to Aquamacs falls under that assignment. The act of yourself moving it from Aquamacs to Emacs does not magically make it owned by the FSF. That's the situation if one is splitting hairs. So there are two ways to have this done: a) have people write a copyright assigment for Aquamacs. This means that the FSF has to be interested in considering Aquamacs a project of their own for which they accept contributions. Given that your development goals include improving Emacs as much as possible for MacOSX, and this is what makes Aquamacs a separate project in the first place, and given that Richard Stallman has repeatedly ruled out improvements starting with non-free platforms, I think it is a safe bet that this course would not work out. Simply because the FSF would not exchange contracts with contributors about Aquamacs contributions. b) ask people to contact the FSF for a copyright assignment for Emacs. It is common practice that people with Emacs CVS write access check in changes from other parties. I noticed that you do not seem to have Emacs CVS write access right now (but have a copyright assignment in place), it might be an idea to ask for it to make things easier. Notice that you are responsible to refrain from putting things into Emacs that are not clear with regard to the copyright status, so you want to make sure that contributors know that you will pass stuff they put into Aquamacs on in their behalf. If you told them to file an assignment for Emacs, or asked actively whether they had such an assignment on file, that should be more or less safe. You can crosscheck with any maintainer of a GNU project, too, as they have access to the assignment lists, and I'd be willing to check for you. But even when an assignment is on file, the contributor has to be aware that his contribution is going to end up in Emacs. So you should ask him anyway. Now there is probably little motivation for a policy of keeping _everything_ in Aquamacs assigned to the FSF. That would be a viable course for projects which may at one time become GNU projects or change maintainers: in that case, you don't want to pick a project apart into FSF-owned and other stuff. But in your case, you can be pretty sure that Aquamacs will not become a separate GNU project because of the policy not to make Emacs ports that only benefit non-free platforms. The FSF will not want to own and/or maintain such a port itself. So code that is so very MacOSX-specific that its functionality could not be achieved on other platforms, and that offers an improvement over other platforms, will probably never make it into Emacs in any manner, anyway. But when you decide for mixed politics, you need to keep proper track of what is yours (or rather the FSF's) to put into Emacs proper when this is desirable, and what should stay confined only within Aquamacs. For stuff like the icons, I'd write prospective contributors something like "Hi, I very much appreciate your icons/work you are willing to do. I think they deserve being made available on all versions of Emacs, not just Aquamacs. The FSF can only accept contributions into Emacs for which they have been given the copyright. I append a request form for a copyright assignment into Emacs, in case you have not yet filled one out. If you are willing to do this, I would be able to make your icons/code/whatever available for all Emacs versions, and it might even be convenient for you if you have to switch platforms at one time, and be able to make use of your contribution there as well." > I know that certain "qualified signatures" (e.g. via X.509 cert, > signed by a "trusted party", i.e. Thawte/Verisign etc.) do have > legally binding status in some legislations at this point. I wonder > if these things can be be used to sign code including a contract > that contains the same stuff that we need to sign when contributing > to GNU projects. If we can get the "paper" out of "paperwork", > things would suddenly become much more manageable. If you are contributing stuff into Emacs, whether on the behalf of someone else or yourself, then you are responsible not to misrepresent the ownership of copyright that you contribute: that's what your contract with the FSF states, and you are held accountable for damages ensuing from a willful misrepresentation. How much risk you are willing to take when communicating with others about what they would do or are willing to do or have done already is your own choice. For assignments to the FSF, I don't think anything except paper gets accepted currently for an assignment, but you could ask copyright-clerk at gnu dot org for details. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum