From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Is Elisp really that slow? Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 18:25:47 +0300 Message-ID: <83y33a9y10.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20190502214006.4fdsinp7u5xuqvdv@Ergus> <20190503004416.xfuzzucflp6bxpuz@Ergus> <8736lm30lz.fsf@web.de> <864l61j04d.fsf@zoho.eu> <20190511073254.GB29829@tuxteam.de> <04187AB9-AD7D-492D-A890-BCB01848370C@icloud.com> <20190511075712.GD29829@tuxteam.de> <86a7fsfv1m.fsf@zoho.eu> <20190512075448.GA11650@tuxteam.de> <346107E9-590D-4A18-9152-ECFF36FC4EDC@icloud.com> <83r293bvok.fsf@gnu.org> <87ef53vihw.fsf@telefonica.net> <83mujrbsk7.fsf@gnu.org> <867eavywh1.fsf@zoho.eu> <837eaubesw.fsf@gnu.org> <86lfzawgb2.fsf@zoho.eu> Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="59815"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon May 13 17:31:37 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hQCvQ-000FQg-Vu for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 13 May 2019 17:31:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59161 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hQCvQ-0004CN-0k for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 13 May 2019 11:31:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51118) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hQCud-0003oo-BI for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 13 May 2019 11:30:50 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:46347) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hQCq6-0002n5-CK for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 13 May 2019 11:26:06 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2337 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hQCq5-0001FC-Mh for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 13 May 2019 11:26:06 -0400 In-reply-to: <86lfzawgb2.fsf@zoho.eu> (message from Emanuel Berg on Mon, 13 May 2019 17:00:01 +0200) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120349 Archived-At: > From: Emanuel Berg > Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 17:00:01 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > Out of the important features listed in > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_development_environment > > > > we completely lack support for code > > completion and refactoring. Our debugging > > support is only up to speed with GDB, which > > means we are limited in the programming > > languages we can support reasonably well. > > OK, so if I understand you correctly we are not > happy to be just an editor that writes code and > then relies on other program to the rest, like > compiling and debugging, only we do actually > want that, but we want it to be > more integrated? No, you misunderstood. We want these features to be as programmers expect nowadays. Whether some of the features depend on other programs or not is immaterial, but if they do, the respective Emacs front-ends should provide what the users expect. GDB is not an IDE, it's a debugging engine. It's okay to make an IDE whose debugging facilities use GDB as their engine, but the front end needs to provide the functionalities expected from debugging function in an IDE. And if GDB doesn't support some popular language, like Python, we need an alternative for those who want to develop Python programs; we don't want to tell them to go to the shell and invoke pdb as a console program. > And we want more language-specific features > like I guess Java has with Eclipse or C# with > .NET/Mono? They are not language-specific features, they are in general features needed in any language. > And we also disregard things like Dired, Gnus, > ERC, Emacs-w3m, and what have you, which are > a great help when developing... if you don't > talk to much instead of working, that is :$ > > We also disregard that when you work on > a project there are often several languages > involved, documentation, a home page, and so on > and we have all that all in one house with the > same finger-habits, help system, and > extension/configuration interface. No, we don't disregard anything. But having Dired or the other niceties is little comfort if what you need is to refactor your code or debug it. > I think the whole (point) with Emacs is that it > is ready for everything, with much the same > approach. Want to learn a new language? > You can start immediately, as you don't have to > learn a new editor or "IDE" first! What if I don't want to learn a language, but to program in it? I want the tools programmers nowadays expect to have from an environment that claims to be for programmers.