Japanese font settings ?

Japanese font settings ?

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

I have no idea how to make use of the information regarding fontsets in the emacs manual to simply have a font of my choice to display Japanese text.

Is there an understandable tutorial somewhere ?


Jean-Christophe Helary
-----------------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune

Re: Japanese font settings ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traduction-libre.org>
> Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 14:25:23 +0900
> 
> I have no idea how to make use of the information regarding fontsets in the emacs manual to simply have a font of my choice to display Japanese text.
> 
> Is there an understandable tutorial somewhere ?

What we have in the 2 manuals is what we think should be it.  Did you
read the node "Fontsets" in the ELisp manual as well?  It has an
example for your use case, I think.

If that is not good enough, please report a documentation bug with the
details of what you want to achieve, what you tried, and why you think
what you tried didn't do the job.

Re: Japanese font settings ?

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On May 22, 2020, at 19:49, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
>> From: Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traduction-libre.org>
>> Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 14:25:23 +0900
>> 
>> I have no idea how to make use of the information regarding fontsets in the emacs manual to simply have a font of my choice to display Japanese text.
>> 
>> Is there an understandable tutorial somewhere ?
> 
> What we have in the 2 manuals is what we think should be it.  Did you
> read the node "Fontsets" in the ELisp manual as well?  It has an
> example for your use case, I think.

I don't think users should have to read a language reference to know how to change a font in their text editor. If that's not a documentation bug then I don't know what is.

> If that is not good enough, please report a documentation bug with the
> details of what you want to achieve, what you tried, and why you think
> what you tried didn't do the job.

What I did is search for CJK in the customize interface, then search for Japanese, then search the Emacs manual and could not find information relevant to my problem which was "I just want to change the default font for Japanese".

Plus, my question was not "at the end of which node in an obscure language reference manual can I find an example that allegedly solves my problem" but, let me restate it:

>> Is there an understandable tutorial somewhere ?

If you don't have an answer to that, that's fine. I just want to change a font, not spend a day reading a reference. The emacs manual doesn't have an answer to that. It should.


Jean-Christophe Helary
-----------------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune

Re: Japanese font settings ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traduction-libre.org>
> Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 21:41:09 +0900
> 
> > What we have in the 2 manuals is what we think should be it.  Did you
> > read the node "Fontsets" in the ELisp manual as well?  It has an
> > example for your use case, I think.
> 
> I don't think users should have to read a language reference to know how to change a font in their text editor. If that's not a documentation bug then I don't know what is.

I suggested to submit a bug if that's your conclusion.

> > If that is not good enough, please report a documentation bug with the
> > details of what you want to achieve, what you tried, and why you think
> > what you tried didn't do the job.
> 
> What I did is search for CJK in the customize interface, then search for Japanese, then search the Emacs manual and could not find information relevant to my problem which was "I just want to change the default font for Japanese".
> 
> Plus, my question was not "at the end of which node in an obscure language reference manual can I find an example that allegedly solves my problem" but, let me restate it:

Look, I'm trying to help you solve your problem.  I don't think I
deserve such a hostile attitude for doing that, do I?

> >> Is there an understandable tutorial somewhere ?
> 
> If you don't have an answer to that, that's fine. I just want to change a font, not spend a day reading a reference. The emacs manual doesn't have an answer to that. It should.

I don't yet see whether the Emacs user manual has an answer.  It has
several examples in the node "Modifying Fontsets" that are very close
to what AFAIU you needed.  Did you see those examples and tried to
follow them?  If so, what didn't work?

I mentioned the ELisp manual because it just happens to have an
example with Japanese, but the examples in the Emacs manual are very
similar, they just use different scripts.

Re: Japanese font settings ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traduction-libre.org>
> Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 16:38:00 +0900
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> All in all, after too many hours wasted on this issue, I'm left with a solution that's exactly equivalent to finding a code snippet found on the web and I've not come any closer to a better understanding of how all that works.
> 
> What the emacs manual should have is:
> 
> 1) a link to the elisp manual for set-fontset-font
> 2) the reference to list-character-sets and to script-representative-chars
> 3) an example that applies set-fontset-font to a list of scripts
> 3) a way to *find* a range of character: do we use list-character-sets, click on a given character set and from there ? Is there a better way ?

Thanks, I used this and other information you posted to improve that
part of the manual.

Re: Japanese font settings ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 15:55:03 +0700
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
>     TARGET may be a script symbol.  In that case, use FONT-SPEC for
>     all the characters that belong to the script.  See the variable
>     ‘script-representative-chars’ for the list of known scripts.
> 
> Following the link to ‘script-representative-chars’ displays several
> scripts. Unfortunately, the list is truncated to the first ten
> elements with no obvious way to see the whole value.

It isn't truncated here, so I think this is some customization of
yours.

> In practice, though, I use the ‘unicode-fonts’ package. I guess the
> politically correct way to refer to it is
> 
>     git clone git@github.com:rolandwalker/unicode-fonts.git

It points to a dead link for Symbola, FWIW.

Re: Japanese font settings ?

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On May 23, 2020, at 21:15, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
>> From: Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traduction-libre.org>
>> Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 16:38:00 +0900
>> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>> 
>> All in all, after too many hours wasted on this issue, I'm left with a solution that's exactly equivalent to finding a code snippet found on the web and I've not come any closer to a better understanding of how all that works.
>> 
>> What the emacs manual should have is:
>> 
>> 1) a link to the elisp manual for set-fontset-font
>> 2) the reference to list-character-sets and to script-representative-chars
>> 3) an example that applies set-fontset-font to a list of scripts
>> 3) a way to *find* a range of character: do we use list-character-sets, click on a given character set and from there ? Is there a better way ?
> 
> Thanks, I used this and other information you posted to improve that
> part of the manual.

Eli,

Thank you *very much* for this update. And I apologize for having been upset.

=====
(For convenience, the ‘han’ script in Emacs is set up to support all of the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, a.k.a. CJK, characters, not just Chinese characters.)
=====

Does that mean that as far as emacs is concerned han also covers hiragana, katakana, bopomofo and various CJK symbols ? If that's the case, why did my first attempt when I specified 'han produced non-satisfactory results (the font applied to the Chinese characters by not to the kanas) but when I specified a given Japanese character set with the same font I got the expected result ?


Jean-Christophe Helary
-----------------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune

Re: Japanese font settings ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traduction-libre.org>
> Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 23:36:00 +0900
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> Thank you *very much* for this update.

You are welcome.

> =====
> (For convenience, the ‘han’ script in Emacs is set up to support all of the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, a.k.a. CJK, characters, not just Chinese characters.)
> =====
> 
> Does that mean that as far as emacs is concerned han also covers hiragana, katakana, bopomofo and various CJK symbols ?

I think for symbols you might also need cjk-misc.  The best way to be
sure is to try using only 'han' in the fontset and see if the symbols
are using the same font.  If they don't, add one more call to
set-fontset-font using cjk-misc and specifying the same font.

Re: Japanese font settings ?

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On May 24, 2020, at 1:20, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
>> From: Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traduction-libre.org>
>> Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 23:36:00 +0900
>> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>> 
>> Thank you *very much* for this update.
> 
> You are welcome.
> 
>> =====
>> (For convenience, the ‘han’ script in Emacs is set up to support all of the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, a.k.a. CJK, characters, not just Chinese characters.)
>> =====
>> 
>> Does that mean that as far as emacs is concerned han also covers hiragana, katakana, bopomofo and various CJK symbols ?
> 
> I think for symbols you might also need cjk-misc.  The best way to be
> sure is to try using only 'han' in the fontset and see if the symbols
> are using the same font.  If they don't, add one more call to
> set-fontset-font using cjk-misc and specifying the same font.

OK. I'll try that.

Jean-Christophe Helary
-----------------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune