Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Christopher Dimech]

Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Christopher Dimech wrote:

> Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

$ ascii \^L
ASCII 0/12 is decimal 012, hex 0c, octal 014, bits 00001100: called ^L, FF
Official name: Form Feed
C escape: '\f'
Other names:

man ascii(1)

actually it is: ?\f

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Christopher Dimech]

Should this be present in emacs source code?

> Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 3:05 AM
> From: "Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>
> Christopher Dimech wrote:
>
> > Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>
> $ ascii \^L
> ASCII 0/12 is decimal 012, hex 0c, octal 014, bits 00001100: called ^L, FF
> Official name: Form Feed
> C escape: '\f'
> Other names:
>
> man ascii(1)
>
> actually it is: ?\f
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
>

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
> Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 16:53:33 +0200
> 
> Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

So that you could use page-motion commands to move between significant
chunks of a file.

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Omar Polo]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

it's used to separate the code in "pages".  Emacs has various commands
page-related (forward-page, backward-page, narrow-to-page, ...)

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Christopher Dimech wrote:

> Should this be present in emacs source code?

Only when

\f

it is useful...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE]

On 2021-05-22 at 16:53:33 +0200,
Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> wrote:

> Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

Printers interpret U+000C FORM FEED as, well, a form feed, aka a page
break.  In the days of paper printers, it was a way to force the printer
to start a new page.  Yes, much existing elisp is that old.

RE: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[arthur miller]

If  you are going to contribute a patch, don't remove them. I Was told .... 😀


-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Från: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com
Datum: 2021-05-22 17:23 (GMT+01:00)
Till: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Ämne: Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

On 2021-05-22 at 16:53:33 +0200,
Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> wrote:

> Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

Printers interpret U+000C FORM FEED as, well, a form feed, aka a page
break.  In the days of paper printers, it was a way to force the printer
to start a new page.  Yes, much existing elisp is that old.

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

arthur miller wrote:

> If you are going to contribute a patch, don't remove them.
> I Was told ...

Indeed, instead why not put your effort at refactoring the
Gnus Elisp source? Keep a phone number to the mental
institution nearby, perhaps...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Christopher Dimech]

Is it still useful in new code? 

The Form Feed is hard to type.  Most text editors do not provide easy ways to type it.
Could emacs cease using invisible glyphs as they could be are confusing and hard to read
and type?  Sometimes I see an ASCII art box.

Regards
Christopher


> Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 3:30 AM
> From: "arthur miller" <arthur.miller@live.com>
> To: "2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com" <2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com>, "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> Subject: RE: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>
> If  you are going to contribute a patch, don't remove them. I Was told .... 😀
> 
> 
> -------- Originalmeddelande --------
> Från: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com
> Datum: 2021-05-22 17:23 (GMT+01:00)
> Till: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Ämne: Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
> 
> On 2021-05-22 at 16:53:33 +0200,
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> wrote:
> 
> > Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
> 
> Printers interpret U+000C FORM FEED as, well, a form feed, aka a page
> break.  In the days of paper printers, it was a way to force the printer
> to start a new page.  Yes, much existing elisp is that old.
> 
>

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Omar Polo]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> Is it still useful in new code? 
>
> The Form Feed is hard to type.  Most text editors do not provide easy ways to type it.
> Could emacs cease using invisible glyphs as they could be are confusing and hard to read
> and type?  Sometimes I see an ASCII art box.
>
> Regards
> Christopher

I'm not an emacs dev, but I find the form feed handy.  Emacs (what other
editors do shouldn't be too much important, should we drop elisp too
since no other editors has a lisp core? :P) has some really handy
functions to handle pages, I encourage you to try to use them sometimes.

It's not really hard to type, just a C-q C-l, and, at least here on
emacs on x11, it's rendered as '^L'.  I've seen tricks to render it as
an horizontal rule.

>> Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 3:30 AM
>> From: "arthur miller" <arthur.miller@live.com>
>> To: "2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com" <2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com>, "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
>> Subject: RE: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>>
>> If  you are going to contribute a patch, don't remove them. I Was told .... 😀
>> 
>> 
>> -------- Originalmeddelande --------
>> Från: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com
>> Datum: 2021-05-22 17:23 (GMT+01:00)
>> Till: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>> Ämne: Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>> 
>> On 2021-05-22 at 16:53:33 +0200,
>> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>> 
>> Printers interpret U+000C FORM FEED as, well, a form feed, aka a page
>> break.  In the days of paper printers, it was a way to force the printer
>> to start a new page.  Yes, much existing elisp is that old.
>> 
>>

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Christopher Dimech wrote:

> Is it still useful in new code? 
>
> The Form Feed is hard to type.

M-x insert-char FORM FEED RET

You can do it!

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE]

On 2021-05-22 at 17:47:45 +0200,
Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> wrote:

> The Form Feed is hard to type.  Most text editors do not provide easy
> ways to type it ...

To type Form Feed:  press and hold the Control key (often marked CTRL),
press the L key, then release both keys.  In Emacs' notation, you
usually see this as C-l.  Most editors interpret this character as some
sort of command to execute rather than an actual character to be
inserted into the text.

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE wrote:

>> The Form Feed is hard to type. Most text editors do not
>> provide easy ways to type it ...
>
> To type Form Feed: press and hold the Control key (often
> marked CTRL), press the L key, then release both keys.
> In Emacs' notation, you usually see this as C-l.
> Most editors interpret this character as some sort of
> command to execute rather than an actual character to be
> inserted into the text.

Uhm, my impression was that the OP didn't like them, now we
compete in telling him HOW to do it?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

RE: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[arthur miller]

You read Emacs source in other text editor then Emacs? 🙄

As Eli and someone else wrote, Emacs has page oriented commands to navigate text.



-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Från: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
Datum: 2021-05-22 17:47 (GMT+01:00)
Till: arthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com>
Kopia: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Ämne: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

Is it still useful in new code?

The Form Feed is hard to type.  Most text editors do not provide easy ways to type it.
Could emacs cease using invisible glyphs as they could be are confusing and hard to read
and type?  Sometimes I see an ASCII art box.

Regards
Christopher


> Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 3:30 AM
> From: "arthur miller" <arthur.miller@live.com>
> To: "2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com" <2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com>, "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> Subject: RE: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>
> If  you are going to contribute a patch, don't remove them. I Was told .... 😀
>
>
> -------- Originalmeddelande --------
> Från: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com
> Datum: 2021-05-22 17:23 (GMT+01:00)
> Till: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Ämne: Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>
> On 2021-05-22 at 16:53:33 +0200,
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> wrote:
>
> > Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>
> Printers interpret U+000C FORM FEED as, well, a form feed, aka a page
> break.  In the days of paper printers, it was a way to force the printer
> to start a new page.  Yes, much existing elisp is that old.
>
>

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Jean Louis]

* Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2021-05-22 18:49]:
> Is it still useful in new code? 
> 
> The Form Feed is hard to type.  Most text editors do not provide easy ways to type it.
> Could emacs cease using invisible glyphs as they could be are confusing and hard to read
> and type?  Sometimes I see an ASCII art box.

\f or ^L is not invisible in Emacs, it is visible, and usually red
highlighted, quite clear.

It is easy to type by using quoted-insert: C-q C-l

There are many various characters. Majority of people will never
change their keybindings, but some people will change it
extensively. I am using these kinds of ⟦ ⟧ brackets.

One can get it with "C-x 8 RET MATHEMATICAL LEFT WHITE SQUARE BRACKET"
but I have it on key bindings.

𝐈 𝐜𝐚𝐧 𝐰𝐫𝐢𝐭𝐞 𝐢𝐧 𝐪𝐮𝐢𝐭𝐞 𝐝𝐢𝐟𝐟𝐞𝐫𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐔𝐧𝐢𝐜𝐨𝐝𝐞 𝐥𝐞𝐭𝐭𝐞𝐫𝐬, 𝒔𝒖𝒄𝒉 𝒂𝒔 𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒔𝒆 𝒉𝒆𝒓𝒆, 𝒐𝒓
𝓵𝓲𝓴𝓮 𝓽𝓱𝓮𝓼𝓮 𝓪𝓼 𝔀𝓮𝓵𝓵. 𝙾𝚛 𝚕𝚒𝚔𝚎 𝚝𝚑𝚎𝚜𝚎.

In online discussions that is quite handy when there is no other
markup method.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE]

On 2021-05-22 at 18:21:45 +0200,
Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> wrote:

> 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE wrote:
> 
> >> The Form Feed is hard to type. Most text editors do not
> >> provide easy ways to type it ...
> >
> > To type Form Feed: press and hold the Control key (often
> > marked CTRL), press the L key, then release both keys.
> > In Emacs' notation, you usually see this as C-l.
> > Most editors interpret this character as some sort of
> > command to execute rather than an actual character to be
> > inserted into the text.
> 
> Uhm, my impression was that the OP didn't like them, now we
> compete in telling him HOW to do it?

My impression is that the OP made a false claim (that Form Feed is hard
to type) and was met with a counterargument.

RE: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[arthur miller]

Yeah, both wasamasa and Purcell have some code to render page breaks prettier:

https://github.com/purcell/page-break-lines

https://depp.brause.cc/form-feed/

And if I remember well there was some interesting article by Mr. Kitchin which I can't find at the moment.

Otherwise, there is some read on wiki pages about page breaks:

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PrettyControlL

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PageBreaks




-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Från: Omar Polo <op@omarpolo.com>
Datum: 2021-05-22 17:58 (GMT+01:00)
Till: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
Kopia: arthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Ämne: Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?


Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> Is it still useful in new code?
>
> The Form Feed is hard to type.  Most text editors do not provide easy ways to type it.
> Could emacs cease using invisible glyphs as they could be are confusing and hard to read
> and type?  Sometimes I see an ASCII art box.
>
> Regards
> Christopher

I'm not an emacs dev, but I find the form feed handy.  Emacs (what other
editors do shouldn't be too much important, should we drop elisp too
since no other editors has a lisp core? :P) has some really handy
functions to handle pages, I encourage you to try to use them sometimes.

It's not really hard to type, just a C-q C-l, and, at least here on
emacs on x11, it's rendered as '^L'.  I've seen tricks to render it as
an horizontal rule.

>> Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 3:30 AM
>> From: "arthur miller" <arthur.miller@live.com>
>> To: "2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com" <2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com>, "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
>> Subject: RE: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>>
>> If  you are going to contribute a patch, don't remove them. I Was told .... 😀
>>
>>
>> -------- Originalmeddelande --------
>> Från: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com
>> Datum: 2021-05-22 17:23 (GMT+01:00)
>> Till: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>> Ämne: Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>>
>> On 2021-05-22 at 16:53:33 +0200,
>> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>>
>> Printers interpret U+000C FORM FEED as, well, a form feed, aka a page
>> break.  In the days of paper printers, it was a way to force the printer
>> to start a new page.  Yes, much existing elisp is that old.
>>
>>

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Eduardo Ochs]

Hi Christopher,

On Sat, 22 May 2021 at 12:48, Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> wrote:
>
> Is it still useful in new code?
>
> The Form Feed is hard to type.  Most text editors do not provide easy ways to type it.
> Could emacs cease using invisible glyphs as they could be are confusing and hard to read
> and type?  Sometimes I see an ASCII art box.
>
> Regards
> Christopher


This is what I use to make the formfeed and a few other special characters
be displayed as colored glyphs (and stand out):

;; Screenshot:
;; http://angg.twu.net/glyphs/eev-glyphs.el.png
;; The code below was mostly taken from:
;; http://angg.twu.net/eev-current/eepitch.el.html#glyphs
;; http://angg.twu.net/eev-current/eepitch.el

(defface eev-glyph-face-bluebg
  '((t (:background "blue")))
  "Face used for the glyph for backspace (char 8; a solid blue box).")

(defface eev-glyph-face-yellow-on-red
  '((t (:foreground "yellow" :background "red")))
  "Face used for the formfeed glyph (char 12).")

(defface eev-glyph-face-blue
  '((t (:foreground "blue")))
  "Face used for the glyph for CR (char 13).")

(defface eepitch-star-face
  '((t (:foreground "red")))
  "Face used for the red star glyph (char 15).")

(defun eepitch-set-glyph0 (pos &optional char face)
  "See: (find-eepitch-intro \"glyph\")"
  (aset standard-display-table pos
(if char (vector (make-glyph-code char face)))))

(defun eepitch-set-glyph (pos &optional char face)
  "See: (find-eepitch-intro \"glyph\")
and: (find-anchors-intro \"glyphs\")
This is the high-level version of `eepitch-set-glyph0', with a hack
to make it work similarly in unibyte and multibyte buffers."
  (eepitch-set-glyph0 pos char face)
  (if (<= 128 pos)
      (eepitch-set-glyph0 (make-char 'eight-bit pos) char face)))

(if (not standard-display-table)
    (setq standard-display-table (make-display-table)))

(eepitch-set-glyph    8 32 'eev-glyph-face-bluebg)
(eepitch-set-glyph   12 ?L 'eev-glyph-face-yellow-on-red)
(eepitch-set-glyph   13 ?M 'eev-glyph-face-blue)
(eepitch-set-glyph   15 ?* 'eepitch-star-face)

;; Test: (insert "\n" 8 12 13 15)

;; Cheers,
;;    Eduardo Ochs =)
;;    http://angg.twu.net/#eev

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE wrote:

>> Uhm, my impression was that the OP didn't like them, now we
>> compete in telling him HOW to do it?
>
> My impression is that the OP made a false claim (that Form
> Feed is hard to type) and was met with a counterargument.

'nuff said.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Christopher Dimech]

Don't always use emacs.  Bluefish uses an Ascii Box.  In othels, quite some funny
renderings.

> Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 4:27 AM
> From: "arthur miller" <arthur.miller@live.com>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> Subject: RE: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>
> You read Emacs source in other text editor then Emacs? 🙄
> 
> As Eli and someone else wrote, Emacs has page oriented commands to navigate text.
> 
> 
> 
> -------- Originalmeddelande --------
> Från: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
> Datum: 2021-05-22 17:47 (GMT+01:00)
> Till: arthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com>
> Kopia: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Ämne: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
> 
> Is it still useful in new code?
> 
> The Form Feed is hard to type.  Most text editors do not provide easy ways to type it.
> Could emacs cease using invisible glyphs as they could be are confusing and hard to read
> and type?  Sometimes I see an ASCII art box.
> 
> Regards
> Christopher
> 
> 
> > Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 3:30 AM
> > From: "arthur miller" <arthur.miller@live.com>
> > To: "2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com" <2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com>, "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> > Subject: RE: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
> >
> > If  you are going to contribute a patch, don't remove them. I Was told .... 😀
> >
> >
> > -------- Originalmeddelande --------
> > Från: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com
> > Datum: 2021-05-22 17:23 (GMT+01:00)
> > Till: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Ämne: Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
> >
> > On 2021-05-22 at 16:53:33 +0200,
> > Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
> >
> > Printers interpret U+000C FORM FEED as, well, a form feed, aka a page
> > break.  In the days of paper printers, it was a way to force the printer
> > to start a new page.  Yes, much existing elisp is that old.
> >
> >
>

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Christopher Dimech wrote:

> Don't always use emacs.

What do you mean?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Christopher Dimech]

I don't always use emacs.  Was not an advice!  ;)


> Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 6:27 AM
> From: "Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>
> Christopher Dimech wrote:
>
> > Don't always use emacs.
>
> What do you mean?
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
>

music with/from Emacs (was: Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?)

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Christopher Dimech wrote:

> I don't always use emacs. Was not an advice!  ;)

Here is what I use:

  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/uxu.txt

Anything I should add to elevate my game?

I would like to do music programming with Emacs, anyone
did that? Trance music in particular.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

RE: [External] : Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Drew Adams]

> $ ascii \^L
> ASCII 0/12 is decimal 012, hex 0c, octal 014, bits 00001100: called ^L,
> FF
> Official name: Form Feed
> C escape: '\f'
> Other names:
> 
> man ascii(1)
> 
> actually it is: ?\f

Yes, and Emacs tells you all about how it's used in Emacs,
for page-oriented commands.

`C-h r i formfeed'

That takes you to node `Pages' of the Emacs manual:

https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Pages.html

RE: [External] : Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Drew Adams]

> It's not really hard to type, just a C-q C-l, and, at least here on
> emacs on x11, it's rendered as '^L'.  I've seen tricks to render it as
> an horizontal rule.

Horizontal rule or pretty much anything else you like.
Since 2007.

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PrettyControlL


https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/pp-c-l.el

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Jean Louis]

This Unicode symbol I would prefer for \f
⎘ 

Its name is NEXT PAGE

(char-from-name "NEXT PAGE") ⇒ 9112

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jean Louis wrote:

> This Unicode symbol I would prefer for \f
> ⎘ 
>
> Its name is NEXT PAGE
>
> (char-from-name "NEXT PAGE") ⇒ 9112

Yeah, but it doesn't show up here even, and more importantly
it doesn't work because it is - something else!

Jean Louis - a league of his own

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2021-05-22 23:18]:
> Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> > This Unicode symbol I would prefer for \f
> > ⎘ 
> >
> > Its name is NEXT PAGE
> >
> > (char-from-name "NEXT PAGE") ⇒ 9112
> 
> Yeah, but it doesn't show up here even, and more importantly
> it doesn't work because it is - something else!

𝓑𝓮𝓬𝓪𝓾𝓼𝓮 𝔂𝓸𝓾 𝓵𝓪𝓬𝓴 𝓰𝓸𝓸𝓭 𝓾𝓷𝓲𝓬𝓸𝓭𝓮 𝓯𝓸𝓷𝓽𝓼.

-- 
Jean

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Re: music with/from Emacs

[Arthur Miller]

Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
<help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> Christopher Dimech wrote:
>
>> I don't always use emacs. Was not an advice!  ;)
>
> Here is what I use:
>
>   https://dataswamp.org/~incal/uxu.txt
>
> Anything I should add to elevate my game?
>
> I would like to do music programming with Emacs, anyone
> did that? Trance music in particular.

Sonic Pi?

https://sonic-pi.net/

Re: music with/from Emacs

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Arthur Miller wrote:

> Sonic Pi?
>
> https://sonic-pi.net/

I got it from the Debian repos, how does it work?

Can't run it in the Linux VT and in X it is just a huge white
screen, I have a resolution of only 640x480, maybe I should
get a monitor then, but from Emacs I mean?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: music with/from Emacs

[Arthur Miller]

Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
<help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> Arthur Miller wrote:
>
>> Sonic Pi?
>>
>> https://sonic-pi.net/
>
> I got it from the Debian repos, how does it work?
>
> Can't run it in the Linux VT and in X it is just a huge white
> screen, I have a resolution of only 640x480, maybe I should
> get a monitor then, but from Emacs I mean?

I don't know never tried it in Emacs. :).

It is like a sequencer, but instead of clicking on boxes like in say
FruityLoops you write code that plays or pauses the tone, changes
frequency etc. 

You will have to look it up, I don't use it myself, I just know about it
for other reasons. It's a Haskell framework, maybe you can write
bindings for Emacs? No idea.

Re: music with/from Emacs

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Arthur Miller wrote:

> I don't know never tried it in Emacs. :).
>
> It is like a sequencer, but instead of clicking on boxes
> like in say FruityLoops you write code that plays or pauses
> the tone, changes frequency etc.
>
> You will have to look it up, I don't use it myself, I just
> know about it for other reasons. It's a Haskell framework,
> maybe you can write bindings for Emacs? No idea.

Oh, no! I can't stand Haskell :( But I can manage if
I have to. Should get a monitor.

Thanks a lot!

https://dataswamp.org/~incal/candelim/

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 23:25:18 +0300
> From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> 
> 𝓑𝓮𝓬𝓪𝓾𝓼𝓮 𝔂𝓸𝓾 𝓵𝓪𝓬𝓴 𝓰𝓸𝓸𝓭 𝓾𝓷𝓲𝓬𝓸𝓭𝓮 𝓯𝓸𝓷𝓽𝓼.

The characters you used above are not for human-readable text, they
are for mathematical formulas.  So it has nothing to do with fonts,
you simply use these characters incorrectly.

Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Jean Louis]

* Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2021-05-23 09:43]:
> > Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 23:25:18 +0300
> > From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> > 
> > 𝓑𝓮𝓬𝓪𝓾𝓼𝓮 𝔂𝓸𝓾 𝓵𝓪𝓬𝓴 𝓰𝓸𝓸𝓭 𝓾𝓷𝓲𝓬𝓸𝓭𝓮 𝓯𝓸𝓷𝓽𝓼.
> 
> The characters you used above are not for human-readable text, they
> are for mathematical formulas.  So it has nothing to do with fonts,
> you simply use these characters incorrectly.

That may be technically right. 

𝐵ut 𝐬𝐨𝐜𝐢𝐚𝐥 𝐦𝐞𝐝𝐢𝐚 𝑁𝐸𝐸𝐷𝑆 it.

Input method generator package - Re: Unicode fonts

[Jean Louis]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1335 bytes --]

And here is the 𝐼𝑁𝑃𝑈𝑇 𝑀𝐸𝑇𝐻𝑂𝐷 𝐺𝐸𝑁𝐸𝑅𝐴𝑇𝑂𝑅 package:

;;; Run M-x rcd-input-method-generator RET to generate 𝓯𝓪𝓷𝓬𝔂 input
;;; methods.
;;;
;;; CIRCLED LATIN: ⓐⓑⓒⓓⓔⓕⓗⓘⓙⓚⓛⓜⓝⓞⓟⓠⓡⓢⓣⓦⓧⓨⓩ
;;; FULLWIDTH LATIN: ＦＵＬＬＷＩＤＴＨ ＬＡＴＩＮ
;;; ʟᴀᴛɪɴ ʟᴇᴛᴛᴇʀ ꜱᴍᴀʟʟ ᴠᴇʀʏ ɴɪᴄᴇ ꜰᴏʀ ꜱᴏᴄɪᴀʟ ᴍᴇᴅɪᴀ
;;; 𝕸𝖆𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖑 𝕭𝖔𝖑𝖉 𝕱𝖗𝖆𝖐𝖙𝖚𝖗
;;; 𝑴𝒂𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒎𝒂𝒕𝒊𝒄𝒂𝒍 𝑩𝒐𝒍𝒅 𝑰𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒊𝒄
;;; 𝐌𝐚𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐁𝐨𝐥𝐝
;;; 𝔻𝕆𝕌𝔹𝕃𝔼 𝕊𝕋R𝕌C𝕂
;;; 𝑀𝐴𝑇𝐻𝐸𝑀𝐴𝑇𝐼𝐶𝐴𝐿 𝐼𝑇𝐴𝐿𝐼𝐶
;;; 𝓂𝒶𝓉𝒽e𝓂𝒶𝓉𝒾𝒸𝒶𝓁 𝓈𝒸𝓇𝒾𝓅𝓉
;;; 𝓪𝓷𝓭 𝓼𝓮𝓿𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓵 𝓸𝓽𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓼
;;;
;;; customize place to save the in variable `rcd-input-method-directory'

https://hyperscope.link/3/7/7/4/1/Emacs-Input-Method-Generator-37741.html



Jean

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[-- Attachment #2: input-method-generator.el --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 5233 bytes --]

;;; input-method-generator.el --- Input Method Generator

;; Copyright (C) 2021 by Jean Louis

;; Author: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
;; Version: 0.1
;; Package-Requires: ()
;; Keywords: convenience
;; URL: https://hyperscope.link/3/7/7/4/1/Emacs-Input-Method-Generator-37741.html

;; This file is not part of GNU Emacs.

;; This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or
;; modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as
;; published by the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the
;; License, or (at your option) any later version.
;;
;; This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
;; WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
;; MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU
;; General Public License for more details.
;;
;; You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
;; along with this program. If not, see <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.

;;; Commentary:
;;;
;;; Run M-x rcd-input-method-generator RET to generate 𝓯𝓪𝓷𝓬𝔂 input
;;; methods.
;;;
;;; CIRCLED LATIN: ⓐⓑⓒⓓⓔⓕⓗⓘⓙⓚⓛⓜⓝⓞⓟⓠⓡⓢⓣⓦⓧⓨⓩ
;;; FULLWIDTH LATIN: ＦＵＬＬＷＩＤＴＨ ＬＡＴＩＮ
;;; ʟᴀᴛɪɴ ʟᴇᴛᴛᴇʀ ꜱᴍᴀʟʟ ᴠᴇʀʏ ɴɪᴄᴇ ꜰᴏʀ ꜱᴏᴄɪᴀʟ ᴍᴇᴅɪᴀ
;;; 𝕸𝖆𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖑 𝕭𝖔𝖑𝖉 𝕱𝖗𝖆𝖐𝖙𝖚𝖗
;;; 𝑴𝒂𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒎𝒂𝒕𝒊𝒄𝒂𝒍 𝑩𝒐𝒍𝒅 𝑰𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒊𝒄
;;; 𝐌𝐚𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐁𝐨𝐥𝐝
;;; 𝔻𝕆𝕌𝔹𝕃𝔼 𝕊𝕋R𝕌C𝕂
;;; 𝑀𝐴𝑇𝐻𝐸𝑀𝐴𝑇𝐼𝐶𝐴𝐿 𝐼𝑇𝐴𝐿𝐼𝐶
;;; 𝓂𝒶𝓉𝒽e𝓂𝒶𝓉𝒾𝒸𝒶𝓁 𝓈𝒸𝓇𝒾𝓅𝓉
;;; 𝓪𝓷𝓭 𝓼𝓮𝓿𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓵 𝓸𝓽𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓼
;;;
;;; customize place to save the in variable `rcd-input-method-directory'
;;; 
;;; Change Log:

;;; Code:

(defcustom rcd-input-method-directory "~/"
  "Define the directory to generated input method files."
  :group 'rcd
  :type 'string)

(defun string-to-file-force (string file)
  "Print STRING into file, matters not if file exists.
Return FILE as file name."
  (with-temp-file file
    (insert string))
  file)

(defvar rcd-input-methods '(
			    "CIRCLED LATIN@"
			    "FULLWIDTH LATIN@"
			    "LATIN LETTER SMALL"
			    "MATHEMATICAL BOLD FRAKTUR"
			    "MATHEMATICAL BOLD ITALIC"
			    "MATHEMATICAL BOLD SCRIPT"
			    "MATHEMATICAL BOLD"
			    "MATHEMATICAL DOUBLE-STRUCK"
			    "MATHEMATICAL ITALIC"
			    "MATHEMATICAL MONOSPACE"
			    "MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD ITALIC"
			    "MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD"
			    "MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF ITALIC"
			    "MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF"
			    "MATHEMATICAL SCRIPT"
			    )
  "The input methods that this package can generate and load.")

(defun rcd-input-method-generator ()
  "Generate 𝓯𝓪𝓷𝓬𝔂 input method.

Activate it with \\[toggle-input-method] or set it with \\[set-input-method]"
  (interactive)
  (let* ((completion-ignore-case t)
	 (input-method (completing-read"Input method: " rcd-input-methods))
	 (unicode-part (upcase (string-trim input-method)))
	 (name (string-replace "@" "" (downcase input-method)))
	 (name (string-replace " " "-" name))
	 (title (capitalize input-method))
	 (description (concat title " Input Method"))
	 (file (concat "input-method-" name ".el")))
    (string-to-file-force
     (rcd-input-method-generate input-method unicode-part name title description)
     file)
    (load-file file)))

(defun rcd-input-method-generate (input-method unicode-part name title description)
  "Generate INPUT-METHOD.

Uses UNICODE-PART, NAME, TITLE and DESCRIPTION."
  (let* ((mode-1 (when (string-match "@" unicode-part) t))
	 (unicode-part (replace-regexp-in-string "@" "" unicode-part))
	 (unicode-part-capital (if mode-1 (concat unicode-part " CAPITAL LETTER ")
				 (concat unicode-part " CAPITAL ")))
	 (unicode-part-small (if mode-1 (concat unicode-part " SMALL LETTER ")
			       (concat unicode-part " SMALL "))))
    (with-temp-buffer
      (insert (format ";;;; Input method: %s\n\n" title))
      (insert "(quail-define-package\n")
      (insert (format " \"%s\" \"Unicode\" \"%s\" t\n" name title))
      (insert (format " \"%s\"\n" description))
      (insert (format " nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil t)\n\n"))
      (insert "(quail-define-rules")
      (let ((num 65))
	(while (< num 91)
	  (let* ((name (concat unicode-part-capital (char-to-string num)))
		 (char-from-name (condition-case nil
				    (char-from-name name)
				  (error ""))))
	    (when char-from-name
	      (insert (format "\n (\"%s\" %d)" (char-to-string num) char-from-name))))
	  (setq num (1+ num))))
      (let ((num 97))
	(while (< num (+ 97 26))
	  (let* ((name (concat unicode-part-small (upcase (char-to-string num))))
		 (char-from-name (condition-case nil
				     (char-from-name name)
				   (error ""))))
	    (when char-from-name
	      (insert (format "\n (\"%s\" %d)" (char-to-string num) char-from-name))))
	  (setq num (1+ num))))
      (insert ")\n\n")
      (buffer-string))))

;;; input-method-generator.el ends here

Re: music with/from Emacs

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Arthur Miller wrote:

>>> Sonic Pi?
>>>
>>> https://sonic-pi.net/
>>
>> I got it from the Debian repos, how does it work?
>>
>> Can't run it in the Linux VT and in X it is just a huge
>> white screen, I have a resolution of only 640x480, maybe
>> I should get a monitor then, but from Emacs I mean?
>
> I don't know never tried it in Emacs :)

$ jackd -R -d alsa -d hw:1 # -p 4096

then somewhere else

$ sonic-pi

works

but I think this program requires a mouse?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Yuri Khan]

On Mon, 24 May 2021 at 02:18, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

> > The characters you used above are not for human-readable text, they
> > are for mathematical formulas.  So it has nothing to do with fonts,
> > you simply use these characters incorrectly.
>
> That may be technically right.
>
> 𝐵ut 𝐬𝐨𝐜𝐢𝐚𝐥 𝐦𝐞𝐝𝐢𝐚 𝑁𝐸𝐸𝐷𝑆 it.

What it *wants* is a way to format text in bold, italic, monospace,
and strikethrough,
and so it *needs* HTML or Markdown support.
But it *has* plain text only
and so *asks for* reliable support for the Mathematical Alphanumeric
Symbols block of Unicode.

Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 at 8:00 PM
> From: "Yuri Khan" <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>
> To: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>, "help-gnu-emacs" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> Subject: Re: Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>
> On Mon, 24 May 2021 at 02:18, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> 
> > > The characters you used above are not for human-readable text, they
> > > are for mathematical formulas.  So it has nothing to do with fonts,
> > > you simply use these characters incorrectly.
> >
> > That may be technically right.
> >
> > 𝐵ut 𝐬𝐨𝐜𝐢𝐚𝐥 𝐦𝐞𝐝𝐢𝐚 𝑁𝐸𝐸𝐷𝑆 it.
> 
> What it *wants* is a way to format text in bold, italic, monospace,
> and strikethrough,
> and so it *needs* HTML or Markdown support.
> But it *has* plain text only
> and so *asks for* reliable support for the Mathematical Alphanumeric
> Symbols block of Unicode.
 
Talking about mathematical expressions, texinfo does not format symbols in bold.

Re: Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Jean Louis]

* Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> [2021-05-24 11:01]:
> On Mon, 24 May 2021 at 02:18, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> 
> > > The characters you used above are not for human-readable text, they
> > > are for mathematical formulas.  So it has nothing to do with fonts,
> > > you simply use these characters incorrectly.
> >
> > That may be technically right.
> >
> > 𝐵ut 𝐬𝐨𝐜𝐢𝐚𝐥 𝐦𝐞𝐝𝐢𝐚 𝑁𝐸𝐸𝐷𝑆 it.
> 
> What it *wants* is a way to format text in bold, italic, monospace,
> and strikethrough,
> and so it *needs* HTML or Markdown support.

Those are built-in features. 

Social media is full of ◦•●❤♡ £åñ¢¥ Lꆆêr§ ♡❤●•◦ beyond the built-in
features.

There is no need to constrain people in using Unicode symbols
regardless for what they are meant. People may like symbols regardless
of their meanings or political or scientific purposes.

(•◡•)

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 at 8:48 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: "Yuri Khan" <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>
> Cc: "help-gnu-emacs" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> Subject: Re: Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>
> * Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> [2021-05-24 11:01]:
> > On Mon, 24 May 2021 at 02:18, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> > 
> > > > The characters you used above are not for human-readable text, they
> > > > are for mathematical formulas.  So it has nothing to do with fonts,
> > > > you simply use these characters incorrectly.
> > >
> > > That may be technically right.
> > >
> > > 𝐵ut 𝐬𝐨𝐜𝐢𝐚𝐥 𝐦𝐞𝐝𝐢𝐚 𝑁𝐸𝐸𝐷𝑆 it.
> > 
> > What it *wants* is a way to format text in bold, italic, monospace,
> > and strikethrough,
> > and so it *needs* HTML or Markdown support.
> 
> Those are built-in features. 
> 
> Social media is full of ◦•●❤♡ £åñ¢¥ Lꆆêr§ ♡❤●•◦ beyond the built-in
> features.
> 
> There is no need to constrain people in using Unicode symbols
> regardless for what they are meant. People may like symbols regardless
> of their meanings or political or scientific purposes.

You could use them for any purpose
 
> (•◡•)
> 
> -- 
> Jean
> 
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> 
> Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/
> 
>

Re: music with/from Emacs

[Arthur Miller]

Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
<help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> Arthur Miller wrote:
>
>>>> Sonic Pi?
>>>>
>>>> https://sonic-pi.net/
>>>
>>> I got it from the Debian repos, how does it work?
>>>
>>> Can't run it in the Linux VT and in X it is just a huge
>>> white screen, I have a resolution of only 640x480, maybe
>>> I should get a monitor then, but from Emacs I mean?
>>
>> I don't know never tried it in Emacs :)
>
> $ jackd -R -d alsa -d hw:1 # -p 4096
>
> then somewhere else
>
> $ sonic-pi
>
> works
>
> but I think this program requires a mouse?

I have just tried it once, it was about writing code, but no idea.

Btw; you could try Rockstar: https://codewithrockstar.com/

To be honest I saw reference to both Rockstar and Sonic in a YT video
about coding, in a presentation by the Rockst author:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6avJHaC3C2U

Re: Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Yuri Khan]

On Mon, 24 May 2021 at 15:52, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

> Social media is full of ◦•●♡ £åñ¢¥ Lꆆêr§ ♡●•◦ beyond the built-in
> features.
>
> There is no need to constrain people in using Unicode symbols
> regardless for what they are meant. People may like symbols regardless
> of their meanings or political or scientific purposes.

No, but we can feel morally justified to say they do it wrong by
making their posts less accessible for users (1) without font coverage
for those blocks; (2) of less capable displays such as out-of-the-box
Linux console; (3) of Braille displays; (4) of screen readers.

Re: Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Jean Louis]

* Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> [2021-05-24 17:08]:
> On Mon, 24 May 2021 at 15:52, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>  
> > Social media is full of ◦•●♡ £åñ¢¥ Lꆆêr§ ♡●•◦ beyond the built-in
> > features.
> >
> > There is no need to constrain people in using Unicode symbols
> > regardless for what they are meant. People may like symbols regardless
> > of their meanings or political or scientific purposes.
> 
> No, but we can feel morally justified to say they do it wrong by
> making their posts less accessible for users (1) without font coverage
> for those blocks; (2) of less capable displays such as out-of-the-box
> Linux console; (3) of Braille displays; (4) of screen readers.

In social media, it their individual expression and creators need not
think how other people will perceive it, or not be able to perceive
it. Computer program that read text should be programmed not
robotically, rather humanely and know how to interpret such characters
not in a robotical way, but in human kind of a way.

These letters like 𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐛𝐨𝐥𝐝 should be supported by every
English screen reader, regardless, as those are letters of English
alphabet. But English class of a screen reader would not support
plethora of other alphabets for the rest of the world as they are not
same chars as English chars, let us just mention Cyrillic here.

So it is really up to screen reader to support it, not to the user to
conform oneself to limitations of other people's software. 

A screen reader that does not understand some characters is lacking
features. Character like ⌣ should be supported as "smile" by screen
reader as it is what it really represents, then there is plethora of
other Unicode characters even more suitable for screen readers and
Braille displays then what letters are.


-- 
Jean

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Re: Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Yuri Khan]

On Mon, 24 May 2021 at 21:27, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

> > No, but we can feel morally justified to say they do it wrong by
> > making their posts less accessible for users (1) without font coverage
> > for those blocks; (2) of less capable displays such as out-of-the-box
> > Linux console; (3) of Braille displays; (4) of screen readers.
>
> In social media, it their individual expression and creators need not
> think how other people will perceive it, or not be able to perceive
> it. Computer program that read text should be programmed not
> robotically, rather humanely and know how to interpret such characters
> not in a robotical way, but in human kind of a way.
>
> These letters like 𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐛𝐨𝐥𝐝 should be supported by every
> English screen reader, regardless, as those are letters of English
> alphabet.

No, they are letters of the Latin alphabet interpreted abstractly.
They are not even required to form words; as a string of mathematical
letterlike symbols, your “𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥” above might mean a
product of 12 vector variables and read accordingly: [em ei ti: eitch
i: em ei ti: si: ei el] in English, or [em uh te ush e em uh te i tse
uh el] in Russian (which borrows the pronunciation of single Latin
letters from French and/or German).

> So it is really up to screen reader to support it, not to the user to
> conform oneself to limitations of other people's software.

Re: Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 17:24:54 +0300
> From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> These letters like 𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐛𝐨𝐥𝐝 should be supported by every
> English screen reader, regardless

How far are you prepared to go with these ridiculous "should be
supported" requirements?  Would you also like "реасе" to be supported
by English screen readers, for example?

You are judging characters by their appearance, which is incorrect.
Characters should be judged by their codepoints and their attributes,
not by how they look in some particular font.

Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 3:02 AM
> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?
>
> > Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 17:24:54 +0300
> > From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> > 
> > These letters like 𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐛𝐨𝐥𝐝 should be supported by every
> > English screen reader, regardless
> 
> How far are you prepared to go with these ridiculous "should be
> supported" requirements?  Would you also like "реасе" to be supported
> by English screen readers, for example?

Writing mathematical symbols in bold is used as a typographical convention
for certain areas of mathematics.  Have not seen them implemented in texinfo.
 
> You are judging characters by their appearance, which is incorrect.
> Characters should be judged by their codepoints and their attributes,
> not by how they look in some particular font.
> 
>

Re: Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Jean Louis]

* Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> [2021-05-24 17:37]:
> No, they are letters of the Latin alphabet interpreted abstractly.
> They are not even required to form words; as a string of mathematical
> letterlike symbols, your “𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥” above might mean a
> product of 12 vector variables and read accordingly: [em ei ti: eitch
> i: em ei ti: si: ei el] in English, or [em uh te ush e em uh te i tse
> uh el] in Russian (which borrows the pronunciation of single Latin
> letters from French and/or German).

Yes, that is what I meant Latin alphabet. I know those letters may
have various meanings.

Language is ever changing and so the written matter going with the
language. We have now thousands of various Unicode symbols used
worldwide.

-- 
Jean

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Re: Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Jean Louis]

* Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2021-05-24 18:03]:
> > Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 17:24:54 +0300
> > From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> > 
> > These letters like 𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐛𝐨𝐥𝐝 should be supported by every
> > English screen reader, regardless
> 
> How far are you prepared to go with these ridiculous "should be
> supported" requirements?

That is up to screen reader authors to decide. Language is ever
changing. Before some decades we did not have computer for language
development, now we have it. Meanings are everywhere. It is up to
screen reader to try to decipher such meanings.

Just as the language is constantly adapting and changing to reflect
our changing lives, experiences and culture, so do the written and
digital symbols by which we express various meanings.

Example is for word 𝗳𝘂𝗻𝗻𝘆 expressed with mathematial sans-serif bold
Unicode chars that gives us 9000+ results on Bing.com:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=%f0%9d%97%b3%f0%9d%98%82%f0%9d%97%bb%f0%9d%97%bb%f0%9d%98%86&search=&first=61&FORM=PERE5

Humans do express meanings by using mathematical sans-serif bold
Unicode, including all other possible Unicode characters, bill𝗶ons of
times.

Combinations are many, it is not easy work, it is up to authors to
decide what to support, and what not. 

> Would you also like "реасе" to be supported by English screen
> readers, for example?

Definitely, just that I don't understand the meaning of your
question. Do you mean that piece and peace would be spoken same? Do
you think the ☮?

Good screen readers should be built-in into OS, be part of the OS, and
they should by default support all languages on the planet wherever OS
is distributed. Because we don't work organized as ants, we may never
accomplish such goal, we work as human.

> You are judging characters by their appearance, which is incorrect.

Yes, surely I understand it may be technically incorrect, though
humanely it gives a style even in those cases where text style cannot
be otherwise assigned. For example in search engines, email subjects,
social media interactions, and so on. The 9000 search results show
that 9000 authors most probably don't even know that those Latin
characters have some other purposes. The trend will continue, in few
years it will be maybe 50000 results or 100,000 results, all with
meanings easily interpreted by humans. Screen reader authors may
decide to support such.

> Characters should be judged by their codepoints and their
> attributes, not by how they look in some particular font.

(•◡•) Maybe yes, maybe yes, but we cannot tell that to thousands of
people who already use it. Language is changing, written language is
also changing. People communicate.

In terms of a program if there is nothing mathematical and program
finds several let us say mathematical bold Unicode characters, that
program can replace it with normal letters and read as such. It is
also possible to recognize if letters belong to the English language
before reading it.



Jean

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Re: Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 21:05:28 +0300
> From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > Would you also like "реасе" to be supported by English screen
> > readers, for example?
> 
> Definitely, just that I don't understand the meaning of your
> question. Do you mean that piece and peace would be spoken same?

Look closer: that word I wrote is not "peace".

> > You are judging characters by their appearance, which is incorrect.
> 
> Yes, surely I understand it may be technically incorrect, though
> humanely it gives a style even in those cases where text style cannot
> be otherwise assigned.

No, that's a slippery slope towards the so-called "confusables", see

  https://websec.github.io/unicode-security-guide/visual-spoofing/

Re: Unicode fonts - Re: Why do I find ^L in elisp code?

[Jean Louis]

* Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2021-05-24 21:13]:
> > Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 21:05:28 +0300
> > From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > > Would you also like "реасе" to be supported by English screen
> > > readers, for example?
> > 
> > Definitely, just that I don't understand the meaning of your
> > question. Do you mean that piece and peace would be spoken same?
> 
> Look closer: that word I wrote is not "peace".

(•◡•) Good trick to demonstrate your point. That type of style is
already used on social media extensively, letters that do not belong
where they should are used for expressions. That is true, and IMHO, it
is up to artificial intelligence to try to decipher that. And it is
possible.

There is Mozilla Voice project where people donate voice for voice
recognition: https://voice.mozilla.org where people speak and listen,
people tell to computer what is the meaning of the voice.

By using that same principle people may provide submissions, andeven
реасе may be interpreted as "peace" in English if it is in the English
context. Similar thing does Google on https://translate.google.com
where it asks users to correct translations. 𝗛𝗲𝗹𝗹𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲

𝗚𝗼𝗼𝗱 𝗲𝘅𝗮𝗺𝗽𝗹𝗲:
https://translate.google.com/?sl=auto&tl=it&text=%F0%9D%97%9B%F0%9D%97%B2%F0%9D%97%B9%F0%9D%97%B9%F0%9D%97%BC%20%F0%9D%98%81%F0%9D%97%B5%F0%9D%97%B2%F0%9D%97%BF%F0%9D%97%B2&op=translate

In that example one can see that Google artificial intelligence
recognizes 𝗛𝗲𝗹𝗹𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲 as English, click on the speech icon, it will
speak English perfectly and Italian's 𝗵𝗲𝗹𝗹𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲 will be spoken in
English with Italian accent. The fact is, Google's artificial
intelligence does recognize Mathematical Sans-Serif Bold.

There could be a more global free software licensed artificial
intelligence that could collect the meanings from people, whatever
they may be. 

> > > You are judging characters by their appearance, which is incorrect.
> > 
> > Yes, surely I understand it may be technically incorrect, though
> > humanely it gives a style even in those cases where text style cannot
> > be otherwise assigned.
> 
> No, that's a slippery slope towards the so-called "confusables", see
> 
>   https://websec.github.io/unicode-security-guide/visual-spoofing/

I understand your rejection as programmer of Emacs and that is fine in
that context. Though on the other side, Emacs is used by thousands of
artists who express themselves beyond technicalities. Programmers of
new software have to be aware of new developments and thus take in
account Unicode symbols.

One may call some of those "confusables", but real problem is in
Unicode's fundamental design of those characters or lack of
attributes. If 𝗔 is not A technically, it is humanely still "A" with a
difference that one could be displayed slightly different, but it
remains the letter A. 

Now if Unicode would assign some attributes or additional type
meanings to it, programs would get information on how to treat that
easier. Now it is possible only on the higher level be telling to
program how to treat a character, but Unicode could inject the type
version into the character itself on fundamental level.

The type could tell that character is readable, or not readable, or
similar to other characters and so on and programs could interpret it
correctly.

That would be fundamental solution to the problem including to
"confusables"  as the type would be fundamental, downloaded from a
central place like Unicode, and programs would just need to read the
type and tell to user that pаураl.com is not equal to paypal.com and
mechanism for that already exist, that is the user's preferred
language when browsing, though it does not apply to internationalized
domai names, but that is yet up to browser authors to harmonize it.

If user wish to read English language, than it is up to browser to say
"No, this domain `pаураl.com' has some cyrillic characters, do you
really wish to proceed?"

Computers need teaching. 

Browser could be instructed to watch out for the alphabet that user
uses, screen reader could be instructed by the 𝗔 attribute to
represent also a letter A, and to read it properly, not just to read
Latin alphabet. Emacs has its properties that can keep such data and
as such could be the exemplary way of presenting such text or set of
characters.



Jean

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