From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: rusi Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Issues with emacs Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 22:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Message-ID: <83086e1d-d66a-4e0c-95a7-92d10a6de7e7@f8g2000pbf.googlegroups.com> References: <87bokbb4zw.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1340604612 28757 80.91.229.3 (25 Jun 2012 06:10:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:10:12 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 25 08:10:12 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Sj2V2-0006ah-8D for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 25 Jun 2012 08:10:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52412 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Sj2V2-0006Fp-0B for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 25 Jun 2012 02:10:12 -0400 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!postnews.google.com!f8g2000pbf.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 50 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 116.74.129.158 Original-X-Trace: posting.google.com 1340604380 14043 127.0.0.1 (25 Jun 2012 06:06:20 GMT) Original-X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:06:20 +0000 (UTC) Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: f8g2000pbf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=116.74.129.158; posting-account=mBpa7woAAAAGLEWUUKpmbxm-Quu5D8ui User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:2.0.1) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/4.0.1,gzip(gfe) Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:193051 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:85446 Archived-At: On Jun 25, 8:54=A0am, ken wrote: > On 06/24/2012 02:39 AM rusi wrote: > > > On Jun 24, 7:39 am, ken =A0wrote: > > >> 5. Make the elisp documentation and tutorials so easy and fun to learn > >> that tons of people actually want to write code. > > > When I first started reading the emacs/elisp docs around 93 I found > > them a model of clarity. > > Has that changed much? I dont think so > > > .... > > > tl;dr version: Saying that emacs manuals are not fun and easy to learn > > is wrong. =A0Its just that reading them feels like 1980 > > I got into computers long before 1980... and read computer manuals back > in the '70s just for fun-- even though I didn't then have a computer or > access to one. I learnt lisp in 84; implemented my own lisp interpreter in 86 (that was almost the required right-of-passage those days), teaching- assisted scheme in 88 to a 'CS101' class, taught my own CS101 using scheme in 91, then in order Miranda, gofer and (in this century) python. So whether I am considered to be capable in lisp I dont know; in any case scheme was for me one of the most happy and I can say epiphanic experiences. > > That said, please note that I was referring to *elisp* and never > mentioned *emacs*. =A0These are two quite different subjects and equating > them and/or their documentation-- to borrow a phrase-- is just wrong. > > The topic was emacs development and how to encourage it. =A0This requires > a knowledge of /elisp/. =A0In the confusion the point I made was lost, so > I'll say it again: To encourage development, there could be better elisp > documentation and tutorials. I believe that one of the biggest obstacles to widespread emacs adoption is (e)lisp. Unfortunately at this point the discussion invariably degenerates into a bad miscombination of technical and sociological framing. If the issue is technical, then encouraging development is out-of- bounds If the issue is social -- how to get today's kids interested in emacs -- and I start with the slogan LEARN ELISP -- I need to go to marketing kindergarten