From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Sivaram Neelakantan Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Issues with emacs Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 23:43:41 +0530 Message-ID: <82vcieeyay.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87bokbb4zw.fsf@gnu.org> <83086e1d-d66a-4e0c-95a7-92d10a6de7e7@f8g2000pbf.googlegroups.com> <87r4t3krun.fsf@friendface.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1340734447 21245 80.91.229.3 (26 Jun 2012 18:14:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:14:07 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jun 26 20:14:07 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1SjaH7-00030O-Jc for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:14:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50390 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SjaH7-00056O-GI for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 26 Jun 2012 14:14:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36422) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SjaH1-00051Q-Mf for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 26 Jun 2012 14:14:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SjaGz-00085T-Qw for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 26 Jun 2012 14:13:59 -0400 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:47185) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SjaGz-00084V-KT for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 26 Jun 2012 14:13:57 -0400 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1SjaGv-0002lK-NM for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:13:53 +0200 Original-Received: from 122.178.220.7 ([122.178.220.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:13:53 +0200 Original-Received: from nsivaram.net by 122.178.220.7 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:13:53 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 52 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 122.178.220.7 User-Mail-Address: nsivaram.net@gmail.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.110019 (No Gnus v0.19) Emacs/24.1 (windows-nt) Cancel-Lock: sha1:mIkkk7w7fM6a8ku2pQNJciOnkwA= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:85486 Archived-At: On Tue, Jun 26 2012,notbob wrote: > On 2012-06-26, Tom wrote: > > >> But it's also a possible that a skilled developer could make a >> permanent living from developing Emacs features. > > Does emacs REALLY need MORE features!? It's already so complex, now, > as to seem almost unfathomable to many. What emacs needs is some > refining, perhaps even some simplification. I use slrn cuz it's much > easier to follow, use, and config than gnus, even though they're > basically the same utility. Another thing that can't hurt is better > documentation. The only thing more arcane and vague than the official > emacs manual are those geeky man pages. One could also make some > money off documentation. I paid hard cash for the emacs O'Reilly books > and consider it money well spent. In fact, I need to buy the 3rd > edition and probably will. > I don't get this better documentation part; tangentially, it might be an asian thing. When I started learning Emacs, I had to start internalising the terminology used by Emacs. Frame, Window, Mark, Point etc. When I understood that, the manual started to make sense a little bit more. The more I started missing things in Emacs compared to what I was used to in other editors, this mailing list along with pointers to the manual made things clear. I was given Emacs and the manual, that's where I started and while I did need help to bootstrap things, I don't know how the documentation can be improved if the mental model that people have of an editor does not correspond to the Emacs way of things. I mean, what's the point of doing Ctrl C/V (CUA mode?)/Vi keystrokes in Emacs, if you're not willing to do things the Emacs way. I think there is no documentation of Windows HCI guidelines that Emacs follows. All I seem to see on the list, "documentation is not helpful"; well about what? No answer because I think some posters are trying to fit the Windows model on this editor. oh, that asian thing. I don't/didn't even think of questioning the way Emacs was built or designed when I first started. Emacs. Learn it. So I started learning. This is starting to sound a bit racist and I don't think I got my point across well too, so I'll stop. sivaram --