Knoppix is not entirely free software

Knoppix is not entirely free software

[Richard Stallman]

A few months ago, I found out that Knoppix included some non-free
software, and the developer said he didn't want to change that.

If he has changed his policies in the meantime, please tell me; that
would be good news.  But otherwise, please do not recommend the use of
Knoppix on GNU mailing lists.  Please recommend only entirely free
software.

(I am not on the help-gnu-emacs list; someone forwarded me a couple of
messages on this thread.)

Re: Knoppix is not entirely free software

[Dan Anderson]

On Wed, 2003-11-12 at 21:39, Richard Stallman wrote:
> A few months ago, I found out that Knoppix included some non-free
> software, and the developer said he didn't want to change that.
> 
> If he has changed his policies in the meantime, please tell me; that
> would be good news.  But otherwise, please do not recommend the use of
> Knoppix on GNU mailing lists.  Please recommend only entirely free
> software.
> 
> (I am not on the help-gnu-emacs list; someone forwarded me a couple of
> messages on this thread.)

That would explain it.  The original poster asked for GNU/Linux
recommendations and said he had heard Knoppix was good.  So nobody was
recommending Knoppix -- although there was some confusion as not
everyone knew you can install Knoppix like a regular *nix distro.

-Dan

Re: Knoppix is not entirely free software

[Peter S Galbraith]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> A few months ago, I found out that Knoppix included some non-free
> software, and the developer said he didn't want to change that.
> 
> If he has changed his policies in the meantime, please tell me; that
> would be good news.  But otherwise, please do not recommend the use of
> Knoppix on GNU mailing lists.  Please recommend only entirely free
> software.

I'll likely regret this, but:

$ grep netscape browse-url.el | wc
     38     161    2011

-- 
Peter S. Galbraith <p.galbraith@globetrotter.net>
GPG key 1024/D2A913A1 - 97CE 866F F579 96EE  6E68 8170 35FF 799E
6623'rd GNU/Linux user at the Counter - http://counter.li.org/

Re: Knoppix is not entirely free software

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:30:36 -0500
> From: Peter S Galbraith <p.galbraith@globetrotter.net>
> > 
> > If he has changed his policies in the meantime, please tell me; that
> > would be good news.  But otherwise, please do not recommend the use of
> > Knoppix on GNU mailing lists.  Please recommend only entirely free
> > software.
> 
> I'll likely regret this, but:
> 
> $ grep netscape browse-url.el | wc
>      38     161    2011

The fact that Netscape is mentioned in browse-url.el doesn't mean
Emacs recommends it, just that it uses it when it's the only tool to
do a certain job.  When a free and a non-free program can be used to
do the same job, Emacs ought to use the free one, though.  If you can
spot such cases in browse-url, please report them as bugs.

Re: Knoppix is not entirely free software

[Peter S Galbraith]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@elta.co.il> wrote:

> > Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:30:36 -0500
> > From: Peter S Galbraith <p.galbraith@globetrotter.net>
> > > 
> > > If he has changed his policies in the meantime, please tell me; that
> > > would be good news.  But otherwise, please do not recommend the use of
> > > Knoppix on GNU mailing lists.  Please recommend only entirely free
> > > software.
> > 
> > I'll likely regret this, but:
> > 
> > $ grep netscape browse-url.el | wc
> >      38     161    2011
> 
> The fact that Netscape is mentioned in browse-url.el doesn't mean
> Emacs recommends it, just that it uses it when it's the only tool to
> do a certain job.  When a free and a non-free program can be used to
> do the same job, Emacs ought to use the free one, though.  If you can
> spot such cases in browse-url, please report them as bugs.

That's not what RMS said a few weeks ago when he was told we had support
for glimpse in MH-E.  He said:

: :    I am a huge fan of mail indexing programs like: swish++, mairix,
: :    glimpse, namazu etc.
:
: I seem to recall that glimpse is or was non-free.  I don't know about
: the others.  Can you check which of these are non-free?  We don't
: want Gnus or MH-E to refer to them.

So we removed support for glimpse.

So how is netscape support in browse-url any different?  Should we
revert that change from CVS?

(I _did_ say I'd regret bringing this up.)

Peter

Re: Knoppix is not entirely free software

[Richard Stallman]

We sometimes design free software so it can work with widely-used
non-free software packages such as Netscape, Windows and MacOS.  Being
able to work with them is not the same as recommending them.  The
mention of Netscape, Windows and MacOs in Emacs doesn't serve to
spread the word of their existence very much, because users mostly
already know of those packages.

Eli wrote:

    The fact that Netscape is mentioned in browse-url.el doesn't mean
    Emacs recommends it, just that it uses it when it's the only tool to
    do a certain job.

In the GNU Project, we won't recommend a non-free program even if it is
the only way to do a job.  We say, "There is nothing we can recommend."

Re: Knoppix is not entirely free software

[Peter S Galbraith]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> We sometimes design free software so it can work with widely-used
> non-free software packages such as Netscape, Windows and MacOS.  Being
> able to work with them is not the same as recommending them.  The
> mention of Netscape, Windows and MacOs in Emacs doesn't serve to
> spread the word of their existence very much, because users mostly
> already know of those packages.
> 
> Eli wrote:
> 
>     The fact that Netscape is mentioned in browse-url.el doesn't mean
>     Emacs recommends it, just that it uses it when it's the only tool to
>     do a certain job.
> 
> In the GNU Project, we won't recommend a non-free program even if it is
> the only way to do a job.  We say, "There is nothing we can recommend."

So perhaps we were premature in removing support for glimpse in MH-E
then.  It was only one of many supported indexers.

Anyway, I better understand the guidelines for the next time it comes
up.

Peter

Re: Knoppix is not entirely free software

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:00:16 -0500
> From: Peter S Galbraith <p.galbraith@globetrotter.net>
> 
> So how is netscape support in browse-url any different?  Should we
> revert that change from CVS?

That's something for Richard to decide, I guess.

> (I _did_ say I'd regret bringing this up.)

What's to regret, up until now?

Re: Knoppix is not entirely free software

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:10:13 -0500
> 
> We sometimes design free software so it can work with widely-used
> non-free software packages such as Netscape, Windows and MacOS.  Being
> able to work with them is not the same as recommending them.  The
> mention of Netscape, Windows and MacOs in Emacs doesn't serve to
> spread the word of their existence very much, because users mostly
> already know of those packages.
> 
> Eli wrote:
> 
>     The fact that Netscape is mentioned in browse-url.el doesn't mean
>     Emacs recommends it, just that it uses it when it's the only tool to
>     do a certain job.
> 
> In the GNU Project, we won't recommend a non-free program even if it is
> the only way to do a job.  We say, "There is nothing we can recommend."

I don't see any contradiction, because that's exactly what I said,
albeit in different words: using is one thing, recommending is
another.

Re: Knoppix is not entirely free software

[Richard Stallman]

    So perhaps we were premature in removing support for g...... in MH-E
    then.  It was only one of many supported indexers.

That wasn't premature--I asked you to remove that code.

Unlike Netscape and Windows, G...... is a fairly obscure non-free
program, so just telling people it exists and what it does tends to
promote it.  Moreover, desupporting it in Emacs could well encourage
people to switch to a free program that Emacs does support.

I wouldn't expect us to have much leverage convincing people to stop
using Windows or even Netscape by desupporting it in Emacs; even
Netscape probably has more users than Emacs does, and we would tend to
reduce usership of Emacs rather than that of Netscape.  Meanwhile,
mentioning the option of using Netscape won't very often inform people
that Netscape exists, because they already know that.

Re: Knoppix is not entirely free software

[Peter S Galbraith]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

>     So perhaps we were premature in removing support for g...... in MH-E
>     then.  It was only one of many supported indexers.
> 
> That wasn't premature--I asked you to remove that code.
> 
> Unlike Netscape and Windows, G...... is a fairly obscure non-free
> program, so just telling people it exists and what it does tends to
> promote it.  Moreover, desupporting it in Emacs could well encourage
> people to switch to a free program that Emacs does support.

Those are hard guidelines to follow since they are not exactly fair.
 
> I wouldn't expect us to have much leverage convincing people to stop
> using Windows or even Netscape by desupporting it in Emacs; even
> Netscape probably has more users than Emacs does, and we would tend to
> reduce usership of Emacs rather than that of Netscape.  Meanwhile,
> mentioning the option of using Netscape won't very often inform people
> that Netscape exists, because they already know that.

You could still plan on removing support when free alternatives are as
good.  While I used netscape on GNU/Linux as my only browser some years
ago, I'm not even sure it's still available.  There are more than a
dozen gecko-based browsers now, and some work very well on Windows as
well.

On the other hand, I don't think we should slap netscape in the face
considering that they donated a lot of the code that made this happen
(through mozilla).

Peter

Re: Knoppix is not entirely free software

[Dan Anderson]

> good.  While I used netscape on GNU/Linux as my only browser some years
> ago, I'm not even sure it's still available.  There are more than a

Point of information: Netscape is still available for windows and going
strong. 

-Dan