From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rusi Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: using use-package Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 10:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7af5f969-32bc-4286-9488-c1df4b74a695@googlegroups.com> References: <20150805055619.13567.17B26335@ahiker.mooo.com> <17131863-cbb8-4a85-8470-490fe9a0c0d4@googlegroups.com> <66dceb24-5fef-4316-8c8b-e9a3e62b0fb8@googlegroups.com> <3594e2c6-bd02-412f-98df-9dd0f145277a@googlegroups.com> <01b4d996-aad3-44ff-a580-7950b25b7dc8@googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1439139938 4487 80.91.229.3 (9 Aug 2015 17:05:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 17:05:38 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Aug 09 19:05:21 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZOU2C-0003lf-Br for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 19:05:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55809 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZOU2B-0003bS-Gq for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 13:05:19 -0400 X-Received: by 10.50.29.79 with SMTP id i15mr8079666igh.0.1439139814703; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 10:03:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.50.167 with SMTP id d7mr89116igo.10.1439139814688; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 10:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!news.glorb.com!se8no1080129igc.0!news-out.google.com!nt1ni3681igb.0!nntp.google.com!pg9no8190908igb.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help In-Reply-To: Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=61.1.39.67; posting-account=mBpa7woAAAAGLEWUUKpmbxm-Quu5D8ui Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 61.1.39.67 User-Agent: G2/1.0 Injection-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 17:03:34 +0000 Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:214126 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:106410 Archived-At: On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 10:15:33 PM UTC+5:30, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > One basic property of FP is that things should not be more order sensitive > > than the minimum (data-dependency) required > > Agreed. > > > By not having package-archive as an autoload, those two statements become > > more order dependent than they (seemingly) need be. > > I don't see it that way: add-to-list is inherently different from setq > (from a data-dependency point of view), so you can't expect > (add-to-list 'foo bar) to work properly without first loading the > package that defines foo. Ok -- add-to-list uses foo as lvalue and rvalue so yes. > Relying on variables being autoloaded would just open another can of worms. This makes no sense Either you (devs) deal with the worms. Or we users. If first the autoloads etc magic should be so cleverly arranged that (for example) (setq foo-variable t) (foo-mode 1) and much more just works non-functional sequence of requires etc fudging If second somebody or other will come up with use-package, req-package etc. We suffer the babel; you suffer its backlash > > > And if core emacs functionality can be thus fragile is it realistic to expect > > random packages to satisfy all the new/changing/confusing best practices? > > AFAIK those "best practices" aren't very new and changing. They've been > used for bundled Emacs packages for many years and all GNU ELPA packages > have strived to do the same from the very beginning. Unlikely Emacs predates the cloud era Today with package archives the in thing, dependency management is inevitable Do emacs packages have the sophisticated .deb style packaging? My impression is that wheel will slowly and painfully and inevitably get reinvented. Why not leapfrog? > > > IOW you folks should give a serious consideration to putting > > (something like) use-package (better req-package) in the core > > The problem is to define "something like". Simply solved -- Just pick up req-package :-)