From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: MBR Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Change_terminology_to_better_align_users=e2=80=99_exp?= =?UTF-8?Q?erience_with_modern_GUIs?= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:11:00 -0400 Message-ID: <7676de90-f488-93c6-1da9-b2d2d0d4fcb5@arlsoft.com> References: <58E90D68-5CE4-425F-BB5F-07533665ADC0@icloud.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="256790"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 To: Stefan Monnier , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 23 15:12:08 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hpuaN-0014eD-FY for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:12:07 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42346 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hpuaM-00051c-Gy for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:12:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53370) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hpuaI-00051V-NS for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:12:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hpuaD-0002uq-IM for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:12:02 -0400 Original-Received: from black.elm.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.212.19]:32573) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hpuaD-0002cp-0B for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:11:57 -0400 X-Sender-Id: tih5qno0ow|x-authuser|mbr+arlsoft.com@hampton.hostforweb.net Original-Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73D9A20943; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:11:09 +0000 (UTC) Original-Received: from hampton.hostforweb.net (100-96-11-126.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.11.126]) (Authenticated sender: tih5qno0ow) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 6B32420725; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:11:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: tih5qno0ow|x-authuser|mbr+arlsoft.com@hampton.hostforweb.net Original-Received: from hampton.hostforweb.net ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [172.245.115.217]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.17.3); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:11:09 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: tih5qno0ow|x-authuser|mbr+arlsoft.com@hampton.hostforweb.net X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: tih5qno0ow X-Whimsical-Abaft: 77016fe951b4f047_1563887469130_1264963314 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1563887469129:2011830154 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1563887469129 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arlsoft.com ; s=default; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From: References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID :Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To: Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe :List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=OiCPAiGDU5QI+iyTU1TqWw+Fk2Fvop0gpB9RT/AzlLU=; b=SgeAu9g+0m7om+SYoMKBE/COOp cDQPQIwbUU9XlvUpNFEe0FOCxJjbMiB1dnKIXb3Cptsqo+ehiHggdp6Su1P+TISAbtiw/5f42cd+h foiLkW1XOVzTIoqrb2B2n3/qy4Zcv5V+3FO5qYpCNrKyhgWxX9BPRkHB8SuKbQekEjIGhDdQvVpRb 3dIUowwMgv2CuDMnFiPU8EBQ013qkMOIMIrZK9D+Ey6INq96j+uaCkMzUp4AD/niWduYDtfWPcQGD P+ve9tqNrGDCDBgFdgEgwzpflrI8uTchPgoCaB3qOlcmSr0sbvmYsxDXnnd4OmaMOUCbHQol6Vw54 E6CjNuew==; Original-Received: from c-24-34-110-154.hsd1.ma.comcast.net ([24.34.110.154]:55826 helo=[192.168.1.121]) by hampton.hostforweb.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1hpuZI-00A3aK-0s; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:11:01 -0500 In-Reply-To: X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 X-AuthUser: mbr+arlsoft.com@hampton.hostforweb.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 23.83.212.19 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:121237 Archived-At: I see this as the Emacs equivalent to the efforts to get the U.S. to=20 switch from the English system of measurement to the Metric system. And=20 we all know how well that has gone. Once a community has been using core terminology for an extended period=20 of time, the only way to change it is to completely replace the members=20 of the community. And doing that would kill Emacs itself, which would=20 make the notion of changing the terminology irrelevant. Mark Rosenthal On 7/23/19 9:00 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >>> IMO in my ideal world, there should be no division between `window' a= nd >>> `buffer', the difference should be abstracted away so that users don=E2= =80=99t >>> have to know the `window' notion at all. >> I don't see how that would even be possible. > Indeed. A given window can show display different buffers at different > times, and a buffer can be displayed in any number of buffers at any on= e > time, so the two are really quite different. > >>> Changing the `window' term to `pane' or something else seems like >>> a low-hanging fruit for people who would like to try using Emacs; I=E2= =80=99m >>> interested/curious on other people=E2=80=99s opinions about this. >> This could be helpful, but there are a *lot* of function names using >> 'window'. That means adding a lot of aliases for backwards >> compatibility. > Yes, we discussed doing such a change a few years back (renaming window > to pane, and then renaming frame to window), but since those names > appear as part of functions's and variables's names, it implies > a massive renaming. In order not to break external packages and users'= s > configs, the old names would still have to be preserved as aliases for > many years (meaning that there would need to be many years between the > renaming of windows to panes and the subsequent renaming of frames to > windows). > > I think "many years" above can be estimated at about of 10 years (there > are still several important packages which consider it important to > be compatible with Emacs<23 and Emacs-23 was released 10 years ago). > > So the way I see it, we're talking about 20 years of transition. > That makes "pane" rhyme with "pain". > > > Stefan > > >