From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: Poll about proposed change in DEL (aka Backspace) and Delete Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 06:33:23 -0700 Message-ID: <71CFF75123EE4102BED12F8A422EF6B9@us.oracle.com> References: <87litcvtu2.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87fwj95689.wl%lists@groll.co.za> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1317735234 3889 80.91.229.12 (4 Oct 2011 13:33:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:33:54 +0000 (UTC) To: "'Jonathan Groll'" , , "'help-gnu-emacs'" Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 04 15:33:50 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RB580-0002Nw-A2 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2011 15:33:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33519 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RB57z-0002Wp-Kx for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2011 09:33:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59850) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RB57r-0002Wi-Nl for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2011 09:33:43 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RB57m-0006NF-0e for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2011 09:33:39 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:16747) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RB57l-0006Mv-RR; Tue, 04 Oct 2011 09:33:33 -0400 Original-Received: from rtcsinet22.oracle.com (rtcsinet22.oracle.com [66.248.204.30]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p94DXUlS026313 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:33:32 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by rtcsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p94DXT9Y026046 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:33:30 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt112.oracle.com (abhmt112.oracle.com [141.146.116.64]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p94DXOo0011417; Tue, 4 Oct 2011 08:33:24 -0500 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.58.205) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 04 Oct 2011 06:33:24 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87fwj95689.wl%lists@groll.co.za> Thread-Index: AcyCi2yKjJl4JIeTSPuO461q10xeVQACnZtQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: rtcsinet22.oracle.com [66.248.204.30] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A020207.4E8B0B2C.0169,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:82445 Archived-At: > In general this is a welcome change and I will no longer need the > following in .emacs: (delete-selection-mode 1) Not really. Not if you expect all that `delete-selection-mode' offers. The first change proposed in the poll is like one piece of `delete-selection-mode', but with a twist in one of its default settings: the DEL key (aka Backspace) deletes without killing. The second change is like another piece of `delete-selection-mode': it lets you type to replace the region. `delete-selection-mode' is more general, and it lets you customize how & which individual commands (hence keys) interact with it. E.g., you can tell it that you want DEL to delete (as in the proposal) instead of kill. You can make it do various things related to the region for any keys you want - very flexible, simple to modify. Personally, I use `delete-selection-mode' - always have. I think it should be the default Emacs behavior. Previously I argued in favor of `transient-mark-mode' being turned on by default. That took a long time, but it is now the default behavior. However, I'm not in favor of either of the current proposals, as is. It is better for such behavior changes to be contained in one or more well-defined modes that users can easily recognize and customize. (Delete-selection is one such mode.) [And by default, mouse selection should be treated the same as the ordinary active region. This was changed recently, with no poll, unfortunately. Likewise, interactions between Emacs selection/region and standard paste buffers/clipboards/selections were changed, with no poll - and it is not obvious to a user how to customize Emacs to get back the old behavior.] > However, I'm not certain from a functional point of view how > delete-selection-mode differs from the proposed change (will it also > include transient mark mode?). Transient mark mode is already turned on now in Emacs, by default. The proposed change does not implement or replace delete-selection mode. What it does is make DEL delete the active region. The second proposed change lets characters you type replace the active region. FWIW, I am very happy to see that Richard has opened a poll for this. It would be helpful if the Emacs maintainers did the same for other (and more radical) changes of behavior that they implement.