From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: dont.spam.earl@gmail.com Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Looking for universal completion with simple UI Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 08:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7126159c-182e-44cf-97b0-6aec73e55c85@googlegroups.com> References: <778b7522-e7b5-4ee7-89fa-10548516d79c@googlegroups.com> <0a07ca5d-d79f-42d8-b74c-f8e7b8fdfae0@googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1413559268 14649 80.91.229.3 (17 Oct 2014 15:21:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 15:21:08 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 17 17:21:03 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xf9Ko-0006bv-GQ for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Oct 2014 17:20:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:32966 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xf9Ko-0000uP-2W for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:20:54 -0400 X-Received: by 10.52.118.35 with SMTP id kj3mr6153109vdb.0.1413559198270; Fri, 17 Oct 2014 08:19:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.131.137 with SMTP id om9mr171380igb.9.1413559198163; Fri, 17 Oct 2014 08:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!s7no3407681qap.0!news-out.google.com!rp1ni32382igb.0!nntp.google.com!uq10no12531383igb.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help In-Reply-To: Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=207.198.105.21; posting-account=QyAvTQoAAADtRdvZ5VbKTpUdY2nZ1GFk Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.198.105.21 User-Agent: G2/1.0 Injection-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 15:19:58 +0000 Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:208203 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:100479 Archived-At: Drew, thanks for your response. Yes, I've been using it for a few months, i= terating several times in reading the documentation, setting variables, and= adjusting my workflow. In no way do I want to complain about or criticize = Icicles. It's clearly very powerful - unique in enabling the user to intera= ctively create and narrow sets of items to apply operations to. I didn't mean my post to be a bug report, and I'm certainly not interested = in changing how YOU use Icicles, or the standard interface you've developed= . What I have in mind is much narrower: developing a set of customizations = to the interface. As with other Emacs packages - and as you did with Icicle= s itself - I may want to share those customizations down the line if I thin= k they form a coherent whole. That's the connection I was making to Emacs s= tarter packages. They offer a variety of ways to get started with Emacs, an= d reflect different people's perspectives on how that can be done. So I'm interested in hearing whether you have any concerns about this idea = from the outset. On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 9:49:14 AM UTC-7, Drew Adams wrote: > > Drew - The one unresolved issue for me is simplicity: the >=20 > > documentation for Icicles spans dozens of pages on emacswiki.org. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Earl - The doc starts with a 14-sentence "README for NON-Readers": =20 >=20 > http://www.emacswiki.org/Icicles_-_Nutshell_View#READMEforNonReaders >=20 >=20 >=20 > After the first 7 sentences, the 8th is "You now know enough to >=20 > use Icicles." And the 9th is "If you have doc-phobia or are easily >=20 > overwhelmed by explanations, then read no more - just try it!" >=20 > I stand by that. >=20 >=20 >=20 > The rest of that page is an overview of Icicles, with examples. >=20 > If you are up to reading more than 14 sentences then that nutshell >=20 > view is the next level of help. You can stop there too. >=20 >=20 >=20 > You do not need to read lots of doc to use Icicles. The fact that >=20 > there *is* lots of doc does not mean that you need to read it all. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Even after using it for a few months, I'm still surprised and >=20 > > turned-off by some of the defaults. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Too vague to be helpful, but OK, your preferences differ from the >=20 > default behavior. Nothing wrong with that. >=20 >=20 >=20 > And you have been using it for a few months but you still don't >=20 > feel comfortable with it. That's OK. People are different. >=20 > Thanks for trying it. Sorry it doesn't fit your needs. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Icicles is not for everyone. (Nor is Emacs, for that matter.) >=20 > And those who do use Icicles use it in very different ways and >=20 > have different preferences. (Likewise, Emacs.) >=20 >=20 >=20 > > ... a simpler interface and smoother learning curve. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please address particular issues or suggestions *specifically*, >=20 > using `M-x icicle-send-bug-report'. >=20 >=20 >=20 > It is trivial for a user to remove all top-level Icicles key >=20 > bindings from the equation, by just setting option >=20 > `icicle-top-level-key-bindings' to nil. >=20 >=20 >=20 > If you do that, and if you never use `S-TAB' to complete, you never >=20 > repeat `TAB' to cycle among completion candidates, and you never >=20 > bother with any of the special minibuffer keys (which are anyway >=20 > not bound in vanilla Emacs or are otherwise not useful in the >=20 > minibuffer), then the behavior you get is pretty close to that of >=20 > vanilla Emacs. And you can toggle `icy-mode' to return to vanilla >=20 > Emacs anytime. >=20 >=20 >=20 > No one is required to use Icicles or find it helpful or useful. >=20 > Emacs is much bigger than Icicles. Happy hacking.