* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] <mailman.25145.1367723226.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-05 3:43 ` Chad Brown 2013-05-07 18:17 ` Cecil Westerhof 2013-05-05 10:14 ` Alan Mackenzie 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Chad Brown @ 2013-05-05 3:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Saturday, May 4, 2013 8:06:58 PM UTC-7, Steven Degutis wrote: > What's the use-case for having the terminal be able to act as an editor? Remote editing on systems that have SSH but not X11. Android and iOS tablets and phones are pretty common. It's also pretty nice with something like screen or tmux. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-05 3:43 ` Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? Chad Brown @ 2013-05-07 18:17 ` Cecil Westerhof 2013-05-08 2:30 ` Hugh Lawson 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Cecil Westerhof @ 2013-05-07 18:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Op zondag 5 mei 2013 05:43 CEST schreef Chad Brown: > Remote editing on systems that have SSH but not X11. Android and iOS tablets > and phones are pretty common. That is good to know. It only works with a real keyboard. So I should buy one and then I could use Emacs on my Android. -- Cecil Westerhof Senior Software Engineer LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-07 18:17 ` Cecil Westerhof @ 2013-05-08 2:30 ` Hugh Lawson 2013-05-08 9:35 ` Nicolas Richard 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Hugh Lawson @ 2013-05-08 2:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs I use "sudo emacs -nw <filename>" in terminal to edit configuration files with super-user permissions. I know about tramp, but as a single-desktop Linux user, I've not had much occasion to use it to edit remote files. Hence I forget the tramp commands. "emacs -nw" is easy to remember for me. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-08 2:30 ` Hugh Lawson @ 2013-05-08 9:35 ` Nicolas Richard 2013-05-08 15:53 ` Bob Proulx [not found] ` <mailman.25331.1368028437.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Richard @ 2013-05-08 9:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Hugh Lawson <hu.lawson@gmail.com> writes: > I use "sudo emacs -nw <filename>" in terminal to edit configuration This runs emacs with su power, which is not so good. I suggest using $ sudoedit <filename> with the (EDITOR or) VISUAL environment variable set to "emacsclient" (or to "emacsclient -a=" or "emacsclient -a= -t", or "emacs" if you really prefer a new emacs session to be started.). (And, going back to the subject, I also use emacs over ssh regularly together with emacsclient, and don't have an internet connection good enough to create X frames over ssh.) -- Nico. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-08 9:35 ` Nicolas Richard @ 2013-05-08 15:53 ` Bob Proulx 2013-05-08 20:51 ` Nicolas Richard [not found] ` <mailman.25343.1368046244.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [not found] ` <mailman.25331.1368028437.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Bob Proulx @ 2013-05-08 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Nicolas Richard wrote: > Hugh Lawson writes: > > I use "sudo emacs -nw <filename>" in terminal to edit configuration > > This runs emacs with su power, which is not so good. I disagree. There is nothing wrong with it. It is no different than: # emacs -nw And surely everyone on this list would agree that emacs is a good editor for root to use. Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-08 15:53 ` Bob Proulx @ 2013-05-08 20:51 ` Nicolas Richard 2013-05-08 21:08 ` Steven Degutis 2013-05-09 8:26 ` Peter Dyballa [not found] ` <mailman.25343.1368046244.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Richard @ 2013-05-08 20:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes: > I disagree. There is nothing wrong with it. It is no different than: > > # emacs -nw I would not do that either, not only because emacs is a huge beast which can have bugs, but most importantly because I don't trust myself in not doing anything harmful inadvertantly after some time [*]. Anyway we can agree to disagree (and/or continue off list if you wish). I simply wanted to point out the existence of sudoedit which I found a very smart idea when I discovered it. [*] I sometimes wish I could use some programs as separate users and only when needed give one of them the right on a given set of files/directories. Unfortunately my skills are too limited to be able to use such a setup (and it's overkill compared to the very limited security I enforce in other areas on my computer). But if anyone reading this has hints on how to achive that setup or anything similar, suggestions are very welcome and my mailbox is open. -- Nico. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-08 20:51 ` Nicolas Richard @ 2013-05-08 21:08 ` Steven Degutis 2013-05-22 11:01 ` Steinar Bang 2013-05-09 8:26 ` Peter Dyballa 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Steven Degutis @ 2013-05-08 21:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Richard; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org So, I was going to link to certain xkcd comics that this thread reminded me of, to point out the vanity of these excessive concerns over security. But then I clicked to the next comic. And the next. Each one evoked a more keen sense of existential futility than the last. So I asked myself, "really, what's the point in replying?" True story. On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Nicolas Richard <theonewiththeevillook@yahoo.fr> wrote: > Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes: >> I disagree. There is nothing wrong with it. It is no different than: >> >> # emacs -nw > > I would not do that either, not only because emacs is a huge beast which > can have bugs, but most importantly because I don't trust myself in not > doing anything harmful inadvertantly after some time [*]. Anyway we can > agree to disagree (and/or continue off list if you wish). I simply > wanted to point out the existence of sudoedit which I found a very smart > idea when I discovered it. > > [*] I sometimes wish I could use some programs as separate users and > only when needed give one of them the right on a given set of > files/directories. Unfortunately my skills are too limited to be able to > use such a setup (and it's overkill compared to the very limited > security I enforce in other areas on my computer). But if anyone reading > this has hints on how to achive that setup or anything similar, > suggestions are very welcome and my mailbox is open. > > -- > Nico. > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-08 21:08 ` Steven Degutis @ 2013-05-22 11:01 ` Steinar Bang 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Steinar Bang @ 2013-05-22 11:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs >>>>> Steven Degutis <sbdegutis@gmail.com>: > So, I was going to link to certain xkcd comics that this thread > reminded me of, to point out the vanity of these excessive concerns > over security. > But then I clicked to the next comic. And the next. Each one evoked a > more keen sense of existential futility than the last. So I asked > myself, "really, what's the point in replying?" I would really, really like to see those comics, and googling for "xkcd excessive security", "xkcd root security", and "xkcd root editor", has so far yielded no results that look like the comics you describe. So... a URL would be nice. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-08 20:51 ` Nicolas Richard 2013-05-08 21:08 ` Steven Degutis @ 2013-05-09 8:26 ` Peter Dyballa 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-09 8:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Richard; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Am 08.05.2013 um 22:51 schrieb Nicolas Richard: > [*] I sometimes wish I could use some programs as separate users and > only when needed give one of them the right on a given set of > files/directories. Role-based access control: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBAC. This article has a large "See also" list. Don't overlook SELinux! -- Greetings Pete When in doubt, use brute force. – Ken Thompson ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25343.1368046244.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-08 23:21 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 2013-05-09 8:21 ` Thorsten Jolitz 2013-05-09 8:38 ` Peter Dyballa 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-05-08 23:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs "Nicolas Richard" <theonewiththeevillook@yahoo.fr> writes: > Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes: >> I disagree. There is nothing wrong with it. It is no different than: >> >> # emacs -nw > > I would not do that either, not only because emacs is a huge beast which > can have bugs, but most importantly because I don't trust myself in not > doing anything harmful inadvertantly after some time [*]. Yes, but then, I *know* I will do something harmful by using a different editor than the one I'm used to when occasionnaly editing as root, hence my relentless destruction of any other editor than emacs on systems I install, even before the first boot. No, the only real risk with emacs, is that it's so agreable to use, that you may forgot you're logged as root. For this, I have: (when (= (user-uid) 0) (set-background-color "black") (set-foreground-color "red")) in my .emacs files… -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ A bad day in () is better than a good day in {}. You can take the lisper out of the lisp job, but you can't take the lisp out of the lisper (; -- antifuchs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-08 23:21 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-05-09 8:21 ` Thorsten Jolitz 2013-05-09 8:38 ` Peter Dyballa 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Thorsten Jolitz @ 2013-05-09 8:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes: > No, the only real risk with emacs, is that it's so agreable to use, that > you may forgot you're logged as root. For this, I have: > > (when (= (user-uid) 0) > (set-background-color "black") > (set-foreground-color "red")) > > in my .emacs files… I have this in my (minimal) init file for Emacs root sessions, which is quite nice since it keeps the e.g. black background and wheat foreground colors and only adds a red header line at the top of the buffer. I copied it from somewhere, probably Fabrice Niessen's .emacs, but I'm not sure about it. ,-------------------------------------------------------------------- | ;; ** Warning about being 'root' | | (message "emacs-ESU-script root warning ...") | | (defface find-file-root-header-face | '((t (:foreground "white" :background "red3"))) | "*Face use to display header-lines for files opened as root.") | | (defun find-file-root-header-warning () | "*Display a warning in header line of the current buffer. | This function is suitable to add to `find-file-root-hook'." | (let* ((warning "WARNING: EDITING FILE WITH ROOT PRIVILEGES!") | (space (+ 6 (- (frame-width) (length warning)))) | (bracket (make-string (/ space 2) ?-)) | (warning (concat bracket warning bracket))) | (setq header-line-format | (propertize warning 'face 'find-file-root-header-face)))) | | (add-hook 'find-file-hook 'find-file-root-header-warning) | (add-hook 'dired-mode-hook 'find-file-root-header-warning) `-------------------------------------------------------------------- -- cheers, Thorsten ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-08 23:21 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 2013-05-09 8:21 ` Thorsten Jolitz @ 2013-05-09 8:38 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-09 13:39 ` Jai Dayal [not found] ` <mailman.25386.1368106748.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-09 8:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Pascal J. Bourguignon; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Am 09.05.2013 um 01:21 schrieb Pascal J. Bourguignon: > Yes, but then, I *know* I will do something harmful by using a different > editor than the one I'm used to when occasionnaly editing as root, hence > my relentless destruction of any other editor than emacs on systems I > install, even before the first boot. GNU Emacs is a bit ore than just a plain editor. It can perform a lot more than vi, nano, pico etc. Therefore its use is more dangerous, at least in theory. -- Greetings Pete Theory and practice are the same, in theory, but, in practice, they are different. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 8:38 ` Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-09 13:39 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 15:26 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-09 16:00 ` Luca Ferrari [not found] ` <mailman.25386.1368106748.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 13:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Peter Dyballa; +Cc: Pascal J. Bourguignon, help-gnu-emacs Um... what exactly can emacs do that vim can't? Or is vim not included in "etc"? On May 9, 2013 2:38 AM, "Peter Dyballa" <Peter_Dyballa@web.de> wrote: > > Am 09.05.2013 um 01:21 schrieb Pascal J. Bourguignon: > > > Yes, but then, I *know* I will do something harmful by using a different > > editor than the one I'm used to when occasionnaly editing as root, hence > > my relentless destruction of any other editor than emacs on systems I > > install, even before the first boot. > > GNU Emacs is a bit ore than just a plain editor. It can perform a lot more > than vi, nano, pico etc. Therefore its use is more dangerous, at least in > theory. > > -- > Greetings > > Pete > > Theory and practice are the same, in theory, but, in practice, they are > different. > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 13:39 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 15:26 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-09 15:35 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 16:00 ` Luca Ferrari 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-09 15:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jai Dayal; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Am 09.05.2013 um 15:39 schrieb Jai Dayal: > Um... what exactly can emacs do that vim can't? Visit remote sites, work like Norton Commander, have an interactive calendar displayed… (And I'm not using the whole potential of GNu Emacs. And vi/vim, too.) -- Greetings Pete Cyanide is so poisonous that one drop of it on a dog's tongue will kill the strongest man. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 15:26 ` Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-09 15:35 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 18:50 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-09 18:58 ` Peter Dyballa 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 15:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Peter Dyballa; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs I'm not sure what you mean "visit remote sites"? I do that with Vim all the time. Vim has an interactive calendar extension "Norton Commander," That's an extension that could be done in Vim. It does seem like Vim has an extension for that. So, your argument boils down to "There are some emacs *extensions* I like that Vim may or may not have exactly", not that Vim can't do them (they both allow for programmable extensions, after all) On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@web.de> wrote: > > Am 09.05.2013 um 15:39 schrieb Jai Dayal: > > > Um... what exactly can emacs do that vim can't? > > Visit remote sites, work like Norton Commander, have an interactive > calendar displayed… (And I'm not using the whole potential of GNu Emacs. > And vi/vim, too.) > > -- > Greetings > > Pete > > Cyanide is so poisonous that one drop of it on a dog's tongue will kill > the strongest man. > > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 15:35 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 18:50 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-09 18:58 ` Peter Dyballa 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-09 18:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jai Dayal; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Am 09.05.2013 um 17:35 schrieb Jai Dayal: > So, your argument boils down to "There are some emacs *extensions* I like > that Vim may or may not have exactly", not that Vim can't do them (they > both allow for programmable extensions, after all) To be correct: I use vi/vim for simple file editing and I use GNU Emacs for some things. Not knowing that vim has so many extensions and coming from vi and being used to used I never had the idea something else than a very good editor. So it's pure ignorance that led to my statement, and I have to commit that it's theoretically possible (in theory, because I never have used such a pimped up vi or vim) that GNU Emacs and vi/vim are dangerous because a super-user can make mistakes when using them which can damage the system. OK? -- Greetings Pete If the majority of cooking accidents happen in the kitchen, then why don't we just cook in other rooms? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 15:35 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 18:50 ` Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-09 18:58 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-09 19:01 ` Jai Dayal ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-09 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jai Dayal; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Am 09.05.2013 um 17:35 schrieb Jai Dayal: > I'm not sure what you mean "visit remote sites"? With TRAMP for example you can log in to other computers and edit files there or perform some file exchange or use a shell on that remote system. BTW, why are you reading this list when you don't know the GNU Emacs basics? They're documented in the documentation inside GNU Emacs and here in this list you mostly receive calls for help or reports about possible bugs. It happens quite rarely that GNU Emacs basics are explained hereby someone… – or two. -- Greetings Pete We need a president who's fluent in at least one language. – Buck Henry ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 18:58 ` Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-09 19:01 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 19:09 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-09 19:04 ` Jai Dayal [not found] ` <mailman.25426.1368126295.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 19:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Peter Dyballa; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs You can do that with Vim easily. I was double checking because I was astonished by the sheer ignorance of that statement. On May 9, 2013 12:58 PM, "Peter Dyballa" <Peter_Dyballa@web.de> wrote: > > Am 09.05.2013 um 17:35 schrieb Jai Dayal: > > > I'm not sure what you mean "visit remote sites"? > > With TRAMP for example you can log in to other computers and edit files > there or perform some file exchange or use a shell on that remote system. > > > BTW, why are you reading this list when you don't know the GNU Emacs > basics? They're documented in the documentation inside GNU Emacs and here > in this list you mostly receive calls for help or reports about possible > bugs. It happens quite rarely that GNU Emacs basics are explained hereby > someone… – or two. > > -- > Greetings > > Pete > > We need a president who's fluent in at least one language. > – Buck Henry > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 19:01 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 19:09 ` Peter Dyballa 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-09 19:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jai Dayal; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Am 09.05.2013 um 21:01 schrieb Jai Dayal: > You can do that with Vim easily. I was double checking because I was > astonished by the sheer ignorance of that statement. OK! But anyway, I'd prefer a simple vi as of 20 or 30 years ago. This gives me just what *I* want. And because of my very wide vim ignorance I'll stop commenting on it! -- Greetings Pete Isn't vi that text editor with two modes... one that beeps and one that corrupts your file? – Dan Jacobson, on comp.os.linux.advocacy ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 18:58 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-09 19:01 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 19:04 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 19:19 ` Óscar Fuentes [not found] ` <mailman.25426.1368126295.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 19:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Peter Dyballa; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs And BTW, you said "visit", not edit. Visit does not strictly mean edit. You are just as ambiguous as you are inaccurate. On May 9, 2013 12:58 PM, "Peter Dyballa" <Peter_Dyballa@web.de> wrote: > > Am 09.05.2013 um 17:35 schrieb Jai Dayal: > > > I'm not sure what you mean "visit remote sites"? > > With TRAMP for example you can log in to other computers and edit files > there or perform some file exchange or use a shell on that remote system. > > > BTW, why are you reading this list when you don't know the GNU Emacs > basics? They're documented in the documentation inside GNU Emacs and here > in this list you mostly receive calls for help or reports about possible > bugs. It happens quite rarely that GNU Emacs basics are explained hereby > someone… – or two. > > -- > Greetings > > Pete > > We need a president who's fluent in at least one language. > – Buck Henry > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 19:04 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 19:19 ` Óscar Fuentes 2013-05-09 19:27 ` Jai Dayal 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Óscar Fuentes @ 2013-05-09 19:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > And BTW, you said "visit", not edit. Visit does not strictly mean edit. > You are just as ambiguous as you are inaccurate. In Emacs parlance, "visiting" means loading the contents of a file into a buffer for some purpose (reading, editing, processing, whatever.) On this mailing list, saying that Emacs can visit a file on a remote machine is more precise than saying that it can edit that same file. TRAMP is much more than visiting remote files. It is a framework for working with a local Emacs instance on a remote machine. For example: with your local Emacs visit a remote source file, then compile it and run a gdb session as you would do if it were a local file. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 19:19 ` Óscar Fuentes @ 2013-05-09 19:27 ` Jai Dayal 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 19:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Óscar Fuentes; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Point taken. The manual does indeed define visit. However Vim offers the exact same functionality. On May 9, 2013 1:19 PM, "Óscar Fuentes" <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote: > Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > > > And BTW, you said "visit", not edit. Visit does not strictly mean edit. > > You are just as ambiguous as you are inaccurate. > > In Emacs parlance, "visiting" means loading the contents of a file into > a buffer for some purpose (reading, editing, processing, whatever.) > > On this mailing list, saying that Emacs can visit a file on a remote > machine is more precise than saying that it can edit that same file. > > TRAMP is much more than visiting remote files. It is a framework for > working with a local Emacs instance on a remote machine. For example: > with your local Emacs visit a remote source file, then compile it and > run a gdb session as you would do if it were a local file. > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25426.1368126295.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-09 19:09 ` Jay Belanger 2013-05-09 21:08 ` Jai Dayal [not found] ` <mailman.25436.1368133731.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jay Belanger @ 2013-05-09 19:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > And BTW, you said "visit", not edit. Visit does not strictly mean edit. From the Emacs manual: "Visiting" a file means reading its contents into an Emacs buffer so you can edit them. Emacs makes a new buffer for each file that you visit. > You are just as ambiguous as you are inaccurate. Technically true, since he was both unambiguous and accurate. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 19:09 ` Jay Belanger @ 2013-05-09 21:08 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-11 4:01 ` PJ Weisberg [not found] ` <mailman.25436.1368133731.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 21:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: jay.p.belanger; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs He was not accurate because he stated this could not be done in Vim. On May 9, 2013 2:06 PM, "Jay Belanger" <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com> wrote: > Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > > > And BTW, you said "visit", not edit. Visit does not strictly mean edit. > > From the Emacs manual: > "Visiting" a file means reading its contents into an Emacs buffer so > you can edit them. Emacs makes a new buffer for each file that you > visit. > > > You are just as ambiguous as you are inaccurate. > > Technically true, since he was both unambiguous and accurate. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 21:08 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-11 4:01 ` PJ Weisberg 2013-05-11 14:43 ` Stefan Monnier 2013-05-11 14:45 ` Jai Dayal 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: PJ Weisberg @ 2013-05-11 4:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: help-gnu-emacs On May 9, 2013 2:09 PM, "Jai Dayal" <dayalsoap@gmail.com> wrote: > On May 9, 2013 2:06 PM, "Jay Belanger" <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > > > > > And BTW, you said "visit", not edit. Visit does not strictly mean edit. > > > > From the Emacs manual: > > "Visiting" a file means reading its contents into an Emacs buffer so > > you can edit them. Emacs makes a new buffer for each file that you > > visit. > > > > > You are just as ambiguous as you are inaccurate. > > > > Technically true, since he was both unambiguous and accurate. > > He was not accurate because he stated this could not be done in Vim. Pish-posh! Can Vim "read[ a file's] contents into an Emacs buffer"? I think NOT. This thread should be retitled "Does anyone really use Vim?". I can't see any reason to support Vim on a modern Emacs-based system, and I purpose that everyone henceforth cease to put any effort into supporting it. :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-11 4:01 ` PJ Weisberg @ 2013-05-11 14:43 ` Stefan Monnier 2013-05-11 14:45 ` Jai Dayal 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2013-05-11 14:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > This thread should be retitled "Does anyone really use Vim?". I can't see > any reason to support Vim on a modern Emacs-based system, and I purpose > that everyone henceforth cease to put any effort into supporting it. :-) You mean I should mark Vim as obsolete in the upcoming Emacs-25? Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-11 4:01 ` PJ Weisberg 2013-05-11 14:43 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2013-05-11 14:45 ` Jai Dayal 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-11 14:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: PJ Weisberg; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs I think more people use Vim than emacs. Not sure if there was any scientific poll done on it. On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 12:01 AM, PJ Weisberg <pjweisberg@gmail.com> wrote: > On May 9, 2013 2:09 PM, "Jai Dayal" <dayalsoap@gmail.com> wrote: > > On May 9, 2013 2:06 PM, "Jay Belanger" <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > > > > > > > And BTW, you said "visit", not edit. Visit does not strictly mean > edit. > > > > > > From the Emacs manual: > > > "Visiting" a file means reading its contents into an Emacs buffer so > > > you can edit them. Emacs makes a new buffer for each file that you > > > visit. > > > > > > > You are just as ambiguous as you are inaccurate. > > > > > > Technically true, since he was both unambiguous and accurate. > > > > He was not accurate because he stated this could not be done in Vim. > > Pish-posh! Can Vim "read[ a file's] contents into an Emacs buffer"? I > think NOT. > > This thread should be retitled "Does anyone really use Vim?". I can't see > any reason to support Vim on a modern Emacs-based system, and I purpose > that everyone henceforth cease to put any effort into supporting it. :-) > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25436.1368133731.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-09 21:58 ` Jay Belanger 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jay Belanger @ 2013-05-09 21:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > He was not accurate because he stated this could not be done in Vim. You were griping about his (accurate) use of the work "visit" when you called him inaccurate. > On May 9, 2013 2:06 PM, "Jay Belanger" <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: >> >> > And BTW, you said "visit", not edit. Visit does not strictly mean edit. >> >> From the Emacs manual: >> "Visiting" a file means reading its contents into an Emacs buffer so >> you can edit them. Emacs makes a new buffer for each file that you >> visit. >> >> > You are just as ambiguous as you are inaccurate. >> >> Technically true, since he was both unambiguous and accurate. >> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 13:39 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 15:26 ` Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-09 16:00 ` Luca Ferrari 2013-05-09 16:02 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 16:17 ` Hongxu Chen 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Luca Ferrari @ 2013-05-09 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> wrote: > Um... what exactly can emacs do that vim can't? Or is vim not included in > "etc"? Well, probably emacs can run vim....;) Emacs is a lisp interpreter that happens to have an editor running as default application! Luca ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 16:00 ` Luca Ferrari @ 2013-05-09 16:02 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 16:19 ` Óscar Fuentes ` (2 more replies) 2013-05-09 16:17 ` Hongxu Chen 1 sibling, 3 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 16:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Luca Ferrari; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Emacs doesn't really run Vim.. it has Viper mode, but it's not nearly Vim. Similarly, in Vim, you can run emacs mode. On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Luca Ferrari <fluca1978@infinito.it> wrote: > On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> wrote: > > Um... what exactly can emacs do that vim can't? Or is vim not included > in > > "etc"? > > Well, probably emacs can run vim....;) > Emacs is a lisp interpreter that happens to have an editor running as > default application! > > Luca > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 16:02 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 16:19 ` Óscar Fuentes 2013-05-09 16:25 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 16:19 ` Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? Hongxu Chen 2013-05-11 18:13 ` Luca Ferrari 2 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Óscar Fuentes @ 2013-05-09 16:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > Emacs doesn't really run Vim.. it has Viper mode, but it's not nearly Vim. http://gitorious.org/evil/pages/Home Not Vim *yet*, but converging fast. > Similarly, in Vim, you can run emacs mode. Does it run Gnus, Slime, magit...? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 16:19 ` Óscar Fuentes @ 2013-05-09 16:25 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 16:40 ` Óscar Fuentes 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 16:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Óscar Fuentes; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs You just admitted not yet Vim but then want emacs mode in vim to be exactly emacs? At any rate, that functionality is available in Vim. So again, the initial statement doesn't hold, at all. On May 9, 2013 10:19 AM, "Óscar Fuentes" <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote: > Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > > > Emacs doesn't really run Vim.. it has Viper mode, but it's not nearly > Vim. > > http://gitorious.org/evil/pages/Home > > Not Vim *yet*, but converging fast. > > > Similarly, in Vim, you can run emacs mode. > > Does it run Gnus, Slime, magit...? > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 16:25 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 16:40 ` Óscar Fuentes 2013-05-09 16:46 ` Jai Dayal ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Óscar Fuentes @ 2013-05-09 16:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > You just admitted not yet Vim but then want emacs mode in vim to be exactly > emacs? At any rate, that functionality is available in Vim. > > So again, the initial statement doesn't hold, at all. There is a huge difference among "not 100% vim yet" (vim emulation on Emacs) with "the most simple features forever" (Emacs emulation on Vim) And now I wonder why I'm arguing on yet another stupid editor flamewar, considering that I'm a happy user of Emacs and Vi(m), currently using Emacs+vimpulse and enjoying the best of both worlds. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 16:40 ` Óscar Fuentes @ 2013-05-09 16:46 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 17:04 ` Óscar Fuentes 2013-05-09 16:51 ` Óscar Fuentes [not found] ` <mailman.25407.1368118028.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 16:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Óscar Fuentes; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Emacs mode on vim is not just basic features. The point is: the author (or anyone else) cannot accurately defend the original statement, thus the original author should be banned for deliberately spreading false information. For the record, I do not use Vim. On May 9, 2013 10:41 AM, "Óscar Fuentes" <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote: > Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > > > You just admitted not yet Vim but then want emacs mode in vim to be > exactly > > emacs? At any rate, that functionality is available in Vim. > > > > So again, the initial statement doesn't hold, at all. > > There is a huge difference among "not 100% vim yet" (vim emulation on > Emacs) with "the most simple features forever" (Emacs emulation on Vim) > > And now I wonder why I'm arguing on yet another stupid editor flamewar, > considering that I'm a happy user of Emacs and Vi(m), currently using > Emacs+vimpulse and enjoying the best of both worlds. > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 16:46 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 17:04 ` Óscar Fuentes 2013-05-09 17:11 ` Jai Dayal 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Óscar Fuentes @ 2013-05-09 17:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > Emacs mode on vim is not just basic features. So it can run Elisp? > The point is: the author (or anyone else) cannot accurately defend the > original statement, thus the original author should be banned for > deliberately spreading false information. The information benefited Emacs over Vim, so the original author deserves praise on this mailing list, not being the accuracy of the information a relevant consideration. OTOH, you can ban him on the vim mailing lists (again, not being the accuracy of the information a relevant consideration.) > For the record, I do not use Vim. Ah, you are the famed editor flamewar fairness masked vigilante. :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 17:04 ` Óscar Fuentes @ 2013-05-09 17:11 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 17:27 ` Óscar Fuentes 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 17:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Óscar Fuentes; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Elisp is a language. Vim has a language of its own. The functionality is no different and both are Chomsky NF languages. You Re arguing keystroke usability not functionality. Every argument here has been about keystrokes, not functionality. On May 9, 2013 11:05 AM, "Óscar Fuentes" <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote: > Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > > > Emacs mode on vim is not just basic features. > > So it can run Elisp? > > > The point is: the author (or anyone else) cannot accurately defend the > > original statement, thus the original author should be banned for > > deliberately spreading false information. > > The information benefited Emacs over Vim, so the original author > deserves praise on this mailing list, not being the accuracy of the > information a relevant consideration. > > OTOH, you can ban him on the vim mailing lists (again, not being the > accuracy of the information a relevant consideration.) > > > For the record, I do not use Vim. > > Ah, you are the famed editor flamewar fairness masked vigilante. > > :-) > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 17:11 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 17:27 ` Óscar Fuentes 2013-05-09 17:50 ` Steven Degutis 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Óscar Fuentes @ 2013-05-09 17:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > Elisp is a language. Vim has a language of its own. The functionality is > no different and both are Chomsky NF languages. Right! It always annoyed me that people wasted time creating all those languages when you can program in raw machine code. > You Re arguing keystroke usability not functionality. Uh? > Every argument here has been about keystrokes, not functionality. Perhaps in your head. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 17:27 ` Óscar Fuentes @ 2013-05-09 17:50 ` Steven Degutis 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Steven Degutis @ 2013-05-09 17:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Óscar Fuentes; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Dear mailing list: I'm terribly sorry to have started a pointless flame war. Please forgive me. How about we all just agree that we all think differently about this, and drop this thread? -Steven On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote: > Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > > > Elisp is a language. Vim has a language of its own. The functionality > is > > no different and both are Chomsky NF languages. > > Right! It always annoyed me that people wasted time creating all those > languages when you can program in raw machine code. > > > You Re arguing keystroke usability not functionality. > > Uh? > > > Every argument here has been about keystrokes, not functionality. > > Perhaps in your head. > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 16:40 ` Óscar Fuentes 2013-05-09 16:46 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 16:51 ` Óscar Fuentes [not found] ` <mailman.25407.1368118028.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Óscar Fuentes @ 2013-05-09 16:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> writes: > considering that I'm a happy user of Emacs and Vi(m), currently using > Emacs+vimpulse and enjoying the best of both worlds. __^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Emacs+Evil. Vimpulse is dead. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* comint outside emacs (was Does anyone really use emacs in terminal?) [not found] ` <mailman.25407.1368118028.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-10 4:08 ` rusi 2013-05-10 4:48 ` Jai Dayal 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: rusi @ 2013-05-10 4:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On May 9, 9:46 pm, Jai Dayal <dayals...@gmail.com> wrote: > Emacs mode on vim is not just basic features. Not wishing to add to the flames here but genuinely ask a question… As a teacher of programming, I like to allow students to be free about things that are distant from programming. Also by default I use emacs. Now as for program editing I expect that vim has the mode- functionality that emacs has. I am specifically interested in inferior buffers ie derivatives of comint mode: Is it possible to run the python interpreter or the haskell interpreter under vi? Last I looked it was not. In case this seems to add to the flames, here's my recent mooc course offering on haskell+python: https://moocfellowship.org/submissions/the-dance-of-functional-programming-languaging-with-haskell-and-python wherein I say that I use emacs but participants can use what they like. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: comint outside emacs (was Does anyone really use emacs in terminal?) 2013-05-10 4:08 ` comint outside emacs (was Does anyone really use emacs in terminal?) rusi @ 2013-05-10 4:48 ` Jai Dayal 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-10 4:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rusi; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Vim has a python interpreter.. I think even natively at this point. Vim also has the Superior Haskell Interaction Mode (SHIM) extension. The point of Vim and Emacs is that they are extendable. You can get them to do arbitrary things. There isn't one thing that emacs does inherently that is impossible to do with Vim, and visa-vera. That's the point I'm trying to get at. On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:08 AM, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote: > On May 9, 9:46 pm, Jai Dayal <dayals...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Emacs mode on vim is not just basic features. > > > Not wishing to add to the flames here but genuinely ask a question… > > As a teacher of programming, I like to allow students to be free about > things that are distant from programming. > Also by default I use emacs. > > Now as for program editing I expect that vim has the mode- > functionality that emacs has. > I am specifically interested in inferior buffers ie derivatives of > comint mode: > > Is it possible to run the python interpreter or the haskell > interpreter under vi? > Last I looked it was not. > > In case this seems to add to the flames, here's my recent mooc course > offering on haskell+python: > > https://moocfellowship.org/submissions/the-dance-of-functional-programming-languaging-with-haskell-and-python > wherein I say that I use emacs but participants can use what they > like. > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 16:02 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 16:19 ` Óscar Fuentes @ 2013-05-09 16:19 ` Hongxu Chen 2013-05-09 16:27 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-11 18:13 ` Luca Ferrari 2 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Hongxu Chen @ 2013-05-09 16:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jai Dayal; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs What's Emacs mode supposed to be in Vim? You mean the keybindings? Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > Emacs doesn't really run Vim.. it has Viper mode, but it's not nearly Vim. > Similarly, in Vim, you can run emacs mode. > > > On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Luca Ferrari <fluca1978@infinito.it> wrote: > >> On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Um... what exactly can emacs do that vim can't? Or is vim not included >> in >> > "etc"? >> >> Well, probably emacs can run vim....;) >> Emacs is a lisp interpreter that happens to have an editor running as >> default application! >> >> Luca >> >> -- Regards, Hongxu Chen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 16:19 ` Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? Hongxu Chen @ 2013-05-09 16:27 ` Jai Dayal 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 16:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hongxu Chen; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs What's viper mode supposed to be in Emacs? You mean key bindings? All Vim modes really are are just key sequences. On May 9, 2013 10:19 AM, "Hongxu Chen" <leftcopy.chx@gmail.com> wrote: > > What's Emacs mode supposed to be in Vim? > > You mean the keybindings? > > Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > > > Emacs doesn't really run Vim.. it has Viper mode, but it's not nearly > Vim. > > Similarly, in Vim, you can run emacs mode. > > > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Luca Ferrari <fluca1978@infinito.it> > wrote: > > > >> On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > Um... what exactly can emacs do that vim can't? Or is vim not > included > >> in > >> > "etc"? > >> > >> Well, probably emacs can run vim....;) > >> Emacs is a lisp interpreter that happens to have an editor running as > >> default application! > >> > >> Luca > >> > >> > > -- > Regards, > Hongxu Chen > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 16:02 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 16:19 ` Óscar Fuentes 2013-05-09 16:19 ` Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? Hongxu Chen @ 2013-05-11 18:13 ` Luca Ferrari 2013-05-11 18:14 ` Jai Dayal [not found] ` <mailman.25563.1368296076.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Luca Ferrari @ 2013-05-11 18:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jai Dayal; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> wrote: > Emacs doesn't really run Vim.. it has Viper mode, but it's not nearly Vim. > Similarly, in Vim, you can run emacs mode. I was joking, I was not meaning the vim-like mode, just that Emacs is so powerful that you can run a shell, a directory browser, a database explorer, and so on...so you can pretty much run any command in Emacs. Luca ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-11 18:13 ` Luca Ferrari @ 2013-05-11 18:14 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-11 19:12 ` Peter Dyballa [not found] ` <mailman.25563.1368296076.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-11 18:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Luca Ferrari; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Again, Vim does that too. I'm just shocked and offended that people here don't know basics. On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Luca Ferrari <fluca1978@infinito.it> wrote: > On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> wrote: > > Emacs doesn't really run Vim.. it has Viper mode, but it's not nearly > Vim. > > Similarly, in Vim, you can run emacs mode. > > I was joking, I was not meaning the vim-like mode, just that Emacs is > so powerful that you can run a shell, a directory browser, a database > explorer, and so on...so you can pretty much run any command in Emacs. > > Luca > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-11 18:14 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-11 19:12 ` Peter Dyballa 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-11 19:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jai Dayal; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Help Am 11.05.2013 um 20:14 schrieb Jai Dayal: > I'm just shocked and offended that people here don't know basics. Well, this is a GNU Emacs related list. Shouldn't it be enough to know the basics of writing and reading, a bit of GNU Emacs, and having a problem to be solved? Best of course when this problem is also GNU Emacs related! What is your problem? -- Greetings Pete Imbecility, n.: A kind of divine inspiration, or sacred fire affecting censorious critics of this dictionary. – Ambrose Bierce: _The Devil's Dictionary_ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25563.1368296076.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-11 20:14 ` Jay Belanger 2013-05-11 21:11 ` Jai Dayal [not found] ` <mailman.25571.1368306670.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jay Belanger @ 2013-05-11 20:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > Again, Vim does that too. I'm just shocked and offended that people here > don't know basics. Basics of what? Basics of vim, on an emacs list? You are easily shocked, and you've already demonstrated that you are eager to be offended. Since you know the basics of vim; can vim do Calculus? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-11 20:14 ` Jay Belanger @ 2013-05-11 21:11 ` Jai Dayal [not found] ` <mailman.25571.1368306670.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-11 21:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: jay.p.belanger; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs If one does not know the basics of vim then one should not make such strong incorrect statements. Yes Vim can do calculus On May 11, 2013 2:05 PM, "Jay Belanger" <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com> wrote: > > Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > > > Again, Vim does that too. I'm just shocked and offended that people here > > don't know basics. > > Basics of what? Basics of vim, on an emacs list? > You are easily shocked, and you've already demonstrated that you are > eager to be offended. > Since you know the basics of vim; can vim do Calculus? > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25571.1368306670.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-11 21:40 ` Jay Belanger 2013-05-11 22:32 ` Jai Dayal [not found] ` <mailman.25577.1368311553.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jay Belanger @ 2013-05-11 21:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > If one does not know the basics of vim then one should not make such strong > incorrect statements. Like I said, eager to be offended. > Yes Vim can do calculus Cool; I didn't know that. How does vim do it? Honest question: emacs can do M-: (calc-eval "integ(x^2*exp(x),x)") to get "x^2 exp(x) + 2 exp(x) - 2 x exp(x)" How does vim do that? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-11 21:40 ` Jay Belanger @ 2013-05-11 22:32 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-11 23:51 ` Dmitry Gutov 2013-05-12 8:30 ` Peter Dyballa [not found] ` <mailman.25577.1368311553.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-11 22:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: jay.p.belanger; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs I understand that you did a simple google search and couldn't find what you were looking for (vim in calculus actually means something else), so if you're not willing to do a little extra work and expect me to prove the most basic trivial things, I'm going to ask you to put something on the line, i.e., when I show you Vim's calculus plugins, you never post on this mailing list again. deal? On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Jay Belanger <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com>wrote: > > Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > > > If one does not know the basics of vim then one should not make such > strong > > incorrect statements. > > Like I said, eager to be offended. > > > Yes Vim can do calculus > > Cool; I didn't know that. How does vim do it? > Honest question: emacs can do > M-: (calc-eval "integ(x^2*exp(x),x)") > to get > "x^2 exp(x) + 2 exp(x) - 2 x exp(x)" > How does vim do that? > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-11 22:32 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-11 23:51 ` Dmitry Gutov 2013-05-12 8:30 ` Peter Dyballa 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2013-05-11 23:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jai Dayal; +Cc: jay.p.belanger, help-gnu-emacs Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > I understand that you did a simple google search and couldn't find what you > were looking for (vim in calculus actually means something else), so if > you're not willing to do a little extra work and expect me to prove the > most basic trivial things, I'm going to ask you to put something on the > line, i.e., when I show you Vim's calculus plugins, you never post on this > mailing list again. deal? This is an unreasonable request. Jay put some amount of effort to find and write down an example of something that would be supposedly hard to do in Vim. If you're unwilling to reciprocate that effort by giving an example of doing that in Vim, maybe *you* should stop posting here instead. --Dmitry > > > On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Jay Belanger <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com>wrote: > >> >> Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: >> >> > If one does not know the basics of vim then one should not make such >> strong >> > incorrect statements. >> >> Like I said, eager to be offended. >> >> > Yes Vim can do calculus >> >> Cool; I didn't know that. How does vim do it? >> Honest question: emacs can do >> M-: (calc-eval "integ(x^2*exp(x),x)") >> to get >> "x^2 exp(x) + 2 exp(x) - 2 x exp(x)" >> How does vim do that? >> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-11 22:32 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-11 23:51 ` Dmitry Gutov @ 2013-05-12 8:30 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-12 8:44 ` Hongxu Chen [not found] ` <mailman.25594.1368348301.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-12 8:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jai Dayal; +Cc: jay.p.belanger, help-gnu-emacs Am 12.05.2013 um 00:32 schrieb Jai Dayal: > so if > you're not willing to do a little extra work and expect me to prove the > most basic trivial things, I'm going to ask you to put something on the > line, i.e., when I show you Vim's calculus plugins, you never post on this > mailing list again. deal? Vi has an interface to shell level: :!. This way you can use expr, bc, or dc to calculate something for vi – or use a GNU Emacs script for something less comprehensible… A bit different is :!emacs -nw <RET> – now you are in GNU Emacs, in terminal, as the subject announces, and can forget that you were in vi before and now are not that limited. You can even files on some remote host! No plugin necessary. -- Greetings Pete If you don't find it in the index, look very carefully through the entire catalogue. – Sears, Roebuck, and Co., Consumer's Guide, 1897 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-12 8:30 ` Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-12 8:44 ` Hongxu Chen [not found] ` <mailman.25594.1368348301.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Hongxu Chen @ 2013-05-12 8:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Peter Dyballa; +Cc: jay.p.belanger, help-gnu-emacs Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes: > Am 12.05.2013 um 00:32 schrieb Jai Dayal: > >> so if >> you're not willing to do a little extra work and expect me to prove the >> most basic trivial things, I'm going to ask you to put something on the >> line, i.e., when I show you Vim's calculus plugins, you never post on this >> mailing list again. deal? > > Vi has an interface to shell level: :!. This way you can use expr, bc, or dc to calculate something for vi – or use a GNU Emacs script for something less comprehensible… However this is inconvenient since Vim just forked a new shell process. Now and then I forget whether the shell's parent process is Vim. > > A bit different is :!emacs -nw <RET> – now you are in GNU Emacs, in terminal, as > the subject announces, and can forget that you were in vi before and now are not > that limited. You can even files on some remote host! No plugin necessary. > > -- > Greetings > > Pete > > If you don't find it in the index, look very carefully through the entire catalogue. > – Sears, Roebuck, and Co., Consumer's Guide, 1897 > > -- Regards, Hongxu Chen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25594.1368348301.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-12 19:44 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 2013-05-12 20:00 ` Dan Espen 2013-05-12 20:52 ` Jai Dayal 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-05-12 19:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Hongxu Chen <leftcopy.chx@gmail.com> writes: > Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes: > >> Am 12.05.2013 um 00:32 schrieb Jai Dayal: >> >>> so if >>> you're not willing to do a little extra work and expect me to prove the >>> most basic trivial things, I'm going to ask you to put something on the >>> line, i.e., when I show you Vim's calculus plugins, you never post on this >>> mailing list again. deal? >> >> Vi has an interface to shell level: :!. This way you can use expr, >> bc, or dc to calculate something for vi – or use a GNU Emacs script >> for something less comprehensible… > However this is inconvenient since Vim just forked a new shell > process. Now and then I forget whether the shell's parent process is Vim. He reason why it's inconvenient, is because once you fork a child process, it cannot modify the data structure in the parent process anymore. So ok, you can perhaps calculate, or do calculus (seems somebody doesn't know the difference), but you cannot have those process modify the data in the vim buffers, or in vim memory. Sure, perhaps you can also have a command or a script in vim to load some file modified by those child processes, but that's the point: there's no calculus program implemented in vim, like there are implemented in emacs. Or spreadsheets, or web browsers, or email readers, or games, etc. >> A bit different is :!emacs -nw <RET> – now you are in GNU Emacs, in terminal, as >> the subject announces, and can forget that you were in vi before and now are not >> that limited. You can even files on some remote host! No plugin necessary. Still not in vim. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ A bad day in () is better than a good day in {}. You can take the lisper out of the lisp job, but you can't take the lisp out of the lisper (; -- antifuchs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-12 19:44 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-05-12 20:00 ` Dan Espen 2013-05-12 20:53 ` Jai Dayal ` (2 more replies) 2013-05-12 20:52 ` Jai Dayal 1 sibling, 3 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Dan Espen @ 2013-05-12 20:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes: > Hongxu Chen <leftcopy.chx@gmail.com> writes: > >> Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes: >> >>> Am 12.05.2013 um 00:32 schrieb Jai Dayal: >>> >>>> so if >>>> you're not willing to do a little extra work and expect me to prove the >>>> most basic trivial things, I'm going to ask you to put something on the >>>> line, i.e., when I show you Vim's calculus plugins, you never post on this >>>> mailing list again. deal? >>> >>> Vi has an interface to shell level: :!. This way you can use expr, >>> bc, or dc to calculate something for vi – or use a GNU Emacs script >>> for something less comprehensible… >> However this is inconvenient since Vim just forked a new shell >> process. Now and then I forget whether the shell's parent process is Vim. > > He reason why it's inconvenient, is because once you fork a child > process, it cannot modify the data structure in the parent process > anymore. So ok, you can perhaps calculate, or do calculus (seems > somebody doesn't know the difference), but you cannot have those process > modify the data in the vim buffers, or in vim memory. > > Sure, perhaps you can also have a command or a script in vim to load > some file modified by those child processes, but that's the point: > there's no calculus program implemented in vim, like there are > implemented in emacs. Or spreadsheets, or web browsers, or email > readers, or games, etc. Ah, something to search for that might yield results. Searching for "vim games", I found this: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=172 Downloading and looking at tetris.vim I see that vim has some kind of command language, with functions, buffer access, arithmetic: fu! s:Sort() wh line('.')>1&&matchstr(getline(line('.')-1),'\d\+$')<s:score|move -2|endw let s:pos=line('.') g/^$/d 11,$d _ redr endf I'd don't know if it approaches the power of Emacs Lisp, but there is enough there for games. -- Dan Espen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-12 20:00 ` Dan Espen @ 2013-05-12 20:53 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-12 21:18 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon [not found] ` <mailman.25612.1368392031.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-12 20:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Espen; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs You did not know this already? I stated that Vim has a language of its own already. If you don't even know Vim basics, you shouldn't comment on Vim. On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote: > "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes: > > > Hongxu Chen <leftcopy.chx@gmail.com> writes: > > > >> Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes: > >> > >>> Am 12.05.2013 um 00:32 schrieb Jai Dayal: > >>> > >>>> so if > >>>> you're not willing to do a little extra work and expect me to prove > the > >>>> most basic trivial things, I'm going to ask you to put something on > the > >>>> line, i.e., when I show you Vim's calculus plugins, you never post on > this > >>>> mailing list again. deal? > >>> > >>> Vi has an interface to shell level: :!. This way you can use expr, > >>> bc, or dc to calculate something for vi – or use a GNU Emacs script > >>> for something less comprehensible… > >> However this is inconvenient since Vim just forked a new shell > >> process. Now and then I forget whether the shell's parent process is > Vim. > > > > He reason why it's inconvenient, is because once you fork a child > > process, it cannot modify the data structure in the parent process > > anymore. So ok, you can perhaps calculate, or do calculus (seems > > somebody doesn't know the difference), but you cannot have those process > > modify the data in the vim buffers, or in vim memory. > > > > Sure, perhaps you can also have a command or a script in vim to load > > some file modified by those child processes, but that's the point: > > there's no calculus program implemented in vim, like there are > > implemented in emacs. Or spreadsheets, or web browsers, or email > > readers, or games, etc. > > Ah, something to search for that might yield results. > > Searching for "vim games", I found this: > > http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=172 > > Downloading and looking at tetris.vim I see that vim has some kind of > command language, with functions, buffer access, arithmetic: > > fu! s:Sort() > wh line('.')>1&&matchstr(getline(line('.')-1),'\d\+$')<s:score|move > -2|endw > let s:pos=line('.') > g/^$/d > 11,$d _ > redr > endf > > > I'd don't know if it approaches the power of Emacs Lisp, but there > is enough there for games. > > -- > Dan Espen > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-12 20:00 ` Dan Espen 2013-05-12 20:53 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-12 21:18 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon [not found] ` <mailman.25612.1368392031.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-05-12 21:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: > Ah, something to search for that might yield results. > > Searching for "vim games", I found this: > > http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=172 > > Downloading and looking at tetris.vim I see that vim has some kind of > command language, with functions, buffer access, arithmetic: > > fu! s:Sort() > wh line('.')>1&&matchstr(getline(line('.')-1),'\d\+$')<s:score|move -2|endw > let s:pos=line('.') > g/^$/d > 11,$d _ > redr > endf > > > I'd don't know if it approaches the power of Emacs Lisp, but there > is enough there for games. In the bottom of the Turing tar pit, yes. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ A bad day in () is better than a good day in {}. You can take the lisper out of the lisp job, but you can't take the lisp out of the lisper (; -- antifuchs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25612.1368392031.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-12 22:40 ` Dan Espen 2013-05-13 1:23 ` Jay Belanger 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Dan Espen @ 2013-05-12 22:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > You did not know this already? I stated that Vim has a language of its own > already. If you don't even know Vim basics, you shouldn't comment on Vim. Wow, you're so smart, I don't feel I'm qualified to read your posts. So, welcome to my kill file. You don't need to email people when you reply to posts either but go for it if you like. You won't get past my mail filters for long. Still don't know how to post and you certainly don't know how to carry on a civilized discussion. > On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote: > >> "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes: >> >> > Hongxu Chen <leftcopy.chx@gmail.com> writes: >> > >> >> Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes: >> >> >> >>> Am 12.05.2013 um 00:32 schrieb Jai Dayal: >> >>> >> >>>> so if >> >>>> you're not willing to do a little extra work and expect me to prove >> the >> >>>> most basic trivial things, I'm going to ask you to put something on >> the >> >>>> line, i.e., when I show you Vim's calculus plugins, you never post on >> this >> >>>> mailing list again. deal? >> >>> >> >>> Vi has an interface to shell level: :!. This way you can use expr, >> >>> bc, or dc to calculate something for vi – or use a GNU Emacs script >> >>> for something less comprehensible… >> >> However this is inconvenient since Vim just forked a new shell >> >> process. Now and then I forget whether the shell's parent process is >> Vim. >> > >> > He reason why it's inconvenient, is because once you fork a child >> > process, it cannot modify the data structure in the parent process >> > anymore. So ok, you can perhaps calculate, or do calculus (seems >> > somebody doesn't know the difference), but you cannot have those process >> > modify the data in the vim buffers, or in vim memory. >> > >> > Sure, perhaps you can also have a command or a script in vim to load >> > some file modified by those child processes, but that's the point: >> > there's no calculus program implemented in vim, like there are >> > implemented in emacs. Or spreadsheets, or web browsers, or email >> > readers, or games, etc. >> >> Ah, something to search for that might yield results. >> >> Searching for "vim games", I found this: >> >> http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=172 >> >> Downloading and looking at tetris.vim I see that vim has some kind of >> command language, with functions, buffer access, arithmetic: >> >> fu! s:Sort() >> wh line('.')>1&&matchstr(getline(line('.')-1),'\d\+$')<s:score|move >> -2|endw >> let s:pos=line('.') >> g/^$/d >> 11,$d _ >> redr >> endf >> >> >> I'd don't know if it approaches the power of Emacs Lisp, but there >> is enough there for games. >> >> -- >> Dan Espen >> -- Dan Espen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-12 22:40 ` Dan Espen @ 2013-05-13 1:23 ` Jay Belanger 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jay Belanger @ 2013-05-13 1:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: ... > Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: ... > So, welcome to my kill file. Good plan; he's in mine, too. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-12 19:44 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 2013-05-12 20:00 ` Dan Espen @ 2013-05-12 20:52 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-13 5:58 ` Jonathan Groll 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-12 20:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Pascal J. Bourguignon; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs The sheer ignorance with how Vim works and what you can do with it is astounding! It's as if all of you are stuck in the 90's with Vim technology. Amazing that such a (undeserving-ly) pedantic group could be so wrong about such trivial issues! Who can even trust your emacs advice? Certainly, it's a small group of dilettantes here, each feeding off of each other. On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Pascal J. Bourguignon < pjb@informatimago.com> wrote: > Hongxu Chen <leftcopy.chx@gmail.com> writes: > > > Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes: > > > >> Am 12.05.2013 um 00:32 schrieb Jai Dayal: > >> > >>> so if > >>> you're not willing to do a little extra work and expect me to prove the > >>> most basic trivial things, I'm going to ask you to put something on the > >>> line, i.e., when I show you Vim's calculus plugins, you never post on > this > >>> mailing list again. deal? > >> > >> Vi has an interface to shell level: :!. This way you can use expr, > >> bc, or dc to calculate something for vi – or use a GNU Emacs script > >> for something less comprehensible… > > However this is inconvenient since Vim just forked a new shell > > process. Now and then I forget whether the shell's parent process is Vim. > > He reason why it's inconvenient, is because once you fork a child > process, it cannot modify the data structure in the parent process > anymore. So ok, you can perhaps calculate, or do calculus (seems > somebody doesn't know the difference), but you cannot have those process > modify the data in the vim buffers, or in vim memory. > > Sure, perhaps you can also have a command or a script in vim to load > some file modified by those child processes, but that's the point: > there's no calculus program implemented in vim, like there are > implemented in emacs. Or spreadsheets, or web browsers, or email > readers, or games, etc. > > > >> A bit different is :!emacs -nw <RET> – now you are in GNU Emacs, in > terminal, as > >> the subject announces, and can forget that you were in vi before and > now are not > >> that limited. You can even files on some remote host! No plugin > necessary. > > Still not in vim. > > -- > __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ > A bad day in () is better than a good day in {}. > You can take the lisper out of the lisp job, but you can't take the lisp > out > of the lisper (; -- antifuchs > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-12 20:52 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-13 5:58 ` Jonathan Groll 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jonathan Groll @ 2013-05-13 5:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Sun, 12 May 2013 16:52:28 -0400, Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> wrote: > The sheer ignorance with how Vim works and what you can do with it is > astounding! It's as if all of you are stuck in the 90's with Vim > technology. Amazing that such a (undeserving-ly) pedantic group could be so > wrong about such trivial issues! Who can even trust your emacs advice? > Certainly, it's a small group of dilettantes here, each feeding off of each > other. This argument is tiresome. Please carry on using vim, it is good software. There is no need to subscribe to an Emacs list in order to badmouth the world, and it doesn't impress anyone. Yours astoundingly trivially dilettantly sheerly ignorantly pedantically, J. -- jjg: Jonathan J. Groll : groll co za has_one { :blog => "http://bloggroll.com" } Any other Disclaimer in this mail is Wrong. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25577.1368311553.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-11 22:41 ` Jay Belanger 2013-05-12 0:04 ` Jai Dayal [not found] ` <mailman.25583.1368317085.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-12 2:27 ` Dan Espen 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jay Belanger @ 2013-05-11 22:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > I understand that you did a simple google search and couldn't find what you > were looking for You understand wrong. I use Calc a lot in Emacs. But then you aren't really trying to understand anything; you are merely throwing a hissy fit. > (vim in calculus actually means something else) So can vim integrate x^2*e^x? > so if you're not willing to do a little extra work and expect me to > prove the most basic trivial things, I expect you to prove that vim can do integrals; no problem for you, since it is basic and trivial. I honestly would be interested in vim doing that so I could play around with it. I really hope it can, but your ill-informed tantrum gives me the impression that it can't. > I'm going to ask you to put something on the line, i.e., when I show > you Vim's calculus plugins, We were talking about vim, not plugins. Can vim do it or not? If so, show me how to get vim to do it. I have vim installed on my computer; that's all I need, right? How to I get it to do an integral? I showed you how to get emacs to do it, now your turn. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-11 22:41 ` Jay Belanger @ 2013-05-12 0:04 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-12 13:46 ` Jonathan Groll [not found] ` <mailman.25583.1368317085.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-12 0:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: jay. p. belanger; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Being extensible is part of vim. I guess following your logic, all tramp functionality is irrelevant because it's an extension! You either take the bet or you don't. You made the ignorant claim that Vim couldn't do it, not me. On May 11, 2013 5:01 PM, "Jay Belanger" <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I understand that you did a simple google search and couldn't find what > you > > were looking for > > You understand wrong. I use Calc a lot in Emacs. > But then you aren't really trying to understand anything; you are merely > throwing a hissy fit. > > > (vim in calculus actually means something else) > > So can vim integrate x^2*e^x? > > > so if you're not willing to do a little extra work and expect me to > > prove the most basic trivial things, > > I expect you to prove that vim can do integrals; no problem for you, > since it is basic and trivial. I honestly would be interested in vim > doing that so I could play around with it. I really hope it can, but > your ill-informed tantrum gives me the impression that it can't. > > > I'm going to ask you to put something on the line, i.e., when I show > > you Vim's calculus plugins, > > We were talking about vim, not plugins. Can vim do it or not? > If so, show me how to get vim to do it. I have vim installed on my > computer; that's all I need, right? How to I get it to do an integral? > I showed you how to get emacs to do it, now your turn. > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-12 0:04 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-12 13:46 ` Jonathan Groll 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jonathan Groll @ 2013-05-12 13:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Sat, 11 May 2013 20:04:40 -0400, Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> wrote: > Being extensible is part of vim. I guess following your logic, all tramp > functionality is irrelevant because it's an extension! You either take the > bet or you don't. You made the ignorant claim that Vim couldn't do it, not > me. Tramp is a part of Emacs nowadays. Cheers, Jonathan -- jjg: Jonathan J. Groll : groll co za has_one { :blog => "http://bloggroll.com" } Any other Disclaimer in this mail is Wrong. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25583.1368317085.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-12 0:09 ` Jay Belanger 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jay Belanger @ 2013-05-12 0:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > You made the ignorant claim that Vim couldn't do it, not me. I have asked you a few times now, and you refuse to answer. I have vim installed on my computer. How do I have it integrate x^2e^x? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25577.1368311553.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-11 22:41 ` Jay Belanger @ 2013-05-12 2:27 ` Dan Espen 2013-05-12 6:32 ` Jai Dayal [not found] ` <mailman.25590.1368340339.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Dan Espen @ 2013-05-12 2:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > I understand that you did a simple google search and couldn't find what you > were looking for (vim in calculus actually means something else), so if > you're not willing to do a little extra work and expect me to prove the > most basic trivial things, I'm going to ask you to put something on the > line, i.e., when I show you Vim's calculus plugins, you never post on this > mailing list again. deal? Why are you being an idiot? Why should anyone leave this list on your say so. If you don't know the answer admit it. I did some simple google searches and found out vim has commands for add and subtract. The material I found said if you want to do something more complicated invoke bc. I know next to nothing about vim, but I'm always willing to learn. Believe it or not, the people that post here are here to share knowledge, not to compare penis size. Oh, and learn how to post. > On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Jay Belanger <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com>wrote: > >> >> Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: >> >> > If one does not know the basics of vim then one should not make such >> strong >> > incorrect statements. >> >> Like I said, eager to be offended. >> >> > Yes Vim can do calculus >> >> Cool; I didn't know that. How does vim do it? >> Honest question: emacs can do >> M-: (calc-eval "integ(x^2*exp(x),x)") >> to get >> "x^2 exp(x) + 2 exp(x) - 2 x exp(x)" >> How does vim do that? >> -- Dan Espen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-12 2:27 ` Dan Espen @ 2013-05-12 6:32 ` Jai Dayal [not found] ` <mailman.25590.1368340339.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-12 6:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Espen; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs I totally know the answer. That's why I'm making the bet! You even know it, so you're avoiding the bet. Just admit you're wrong. I did it in one post after being proven wrong. Why is it so hard for you? On May 11, 2013 11:28 PM, "Dan Espen" <despen@verizon.net> wrote: > Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > > > I understand that you did a simple google search and couldn't find what > you > > were looking for (vim in calculus actually means something else), so if > > you're not willing to do a little extra work and expect me to prove the > > most basic trivial things, I'm going to ask you to put something on the > > line, i.e., when I show you Vim's calculus plugins, you never post on > this > > mailing list again. deal? > > Why are you being an idiot? > > Why should anyone leave this list on your say so. > If you don't know the answer admit it. > > I did some simple google searches and found out vim has commands for add > and subtract. The material I found said if you want to do something > more complicated invoke bc. > > I know next to nothing about vim, but I'm always willing to learn. > > Believe it or not, the people that post here are here to share > knowledge, not to compare penis size. > > Oh, and learn how to post. > > > On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Jay Belanger <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com > >wrote: > > > >> > >> Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> writes: > >> > >> > If one does not know the basics of vim then one should not make such > >> strong > >> > incorrect statements. > >> > >> Like I said, eager to be offended. > >> > >> > Yes Vim can do calculus > >> > >> Cool; I didn't know that. How does vim do it? > >> Honest question: emacs can do > >> M-: (calc-eval "integ(x^2*exp(x),x)") > >> to get > >> "x^2 exp(x) + 2 exp(x) - 2 x exp(x)" > >> How does vim do that? > >> > > -- > Dan Espen > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25590.1368340339.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-12 14:07 ` Jay Belanger 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jay Belanger @ 2013-05-12 14:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > I totally know the answer. And yet you've not given it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 16:00 ` Luca Ferrari 2013-05-09 16:02 ` Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 16:17 ` Hongxu Chen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Hongxu Chen @ 2013-05-09 16:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Luca Ferrari; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Apart from those lisp-family program modes, I like emacs better since there are more elaborate configurations for me, directory local variables for instance, which makes emacs a more modern IDE. Emacs also has more powerful buffer handling features than Vim, although Vim has better built-in Window and Tab operations. Luca Ferrari <fluca1978@infinito.it> writes: > On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> wrote: >> Um... what exactly can emacs do that vim can't? Or is vim not included in >> "etc"? > > Well, probably emacs can run vim....;) > Emacs is a lisp interpreter that happens to have an editor running as > default application! > > Luca > -- Regards, Hongxu Chen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25386.1368106748.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-09 13:43 ` notbob 2013-05-09 15:57 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 16:53 ` Jay Belanger 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: notbob @ 2013-05-09 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On 2013-05-09, Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> wrote: > Um... what exactly can emacs do that vim can't? Or is vim not included in > "etc"? Edit in a single mode. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 13:43 ` notbob @ 2013-05-09 15:57 ` Jai Dayal 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jai Dayal @ 2013-05-09 15:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: notbob; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs That's not functionality, though. That's usability. If your argument against Vim is "well, it's not emacs" then that doesn't answer the question as we're talking about functionality, not usability. On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 9:43 AM, notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote: > On 2013-05-09, Jai Dayal <dayalsoap@gmail.com> wrote: > > Um... what exactly can emacs do that vim can't? Or is vim not included > in > > "etc"? > > Edit in a single mode. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25386.1368106748.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-09 13:43 ` notbob @ 2013-05-09 16:53 ` Jay Belanger 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jay Belanger @ 2013-05-09 16:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Um... what exactly can emacs do that vim can't? Calculus. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25331.1368028437.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-08 16:51 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 2013-05-08 19:49 ` Bob Proulx 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-05-08 16:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes: > Nicolas Richard wrote: >> Hugh Lawson writes: >> > I use "sudo emacs -nw <filename>" in terminal to edit configuration >> >> This runs emacs with su power, which is not so good. > > I disagree. There is nothing wrong with it. It is no different than: > > # emacs -nw > > And surely everyone on this list would agree that emacs is a good > editor for root to use. Yes. However, you must be conscious of the theorical possibility of emacs lisp viruses thru file and directory local variables. If you find-file in a directory where a malicious user has written a .dir-locals.el file, he could theorically take advantage of it to root you. Of course, normally emacs ask permission to evaluate a form, or to set any variable he doesn't know to be safe. But if you type y or ! carelessly, you can be hosed. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ A bad day in () is better than a good day in {}. You can take the lisper out of the lisp job, but you can't take the lisp out of the lisper (; -- antifuchs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-08 16:51 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-05-08 19:49 ` Bob Proulx 2013-05-09 1:15 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Bob Proulx @ 2013-05-08 19:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote: > Bob Proulx writes: > > # emacs -nw > > > > And surely everyone on this list would agree that emacs is a good > > editor for root to use. > > Yes. However, you must be conscious of the theorical possibility of > emacs lisp viruses thru file and directory local variables. But emacs will always ask you if it should proceed due to that issue. It will never do it automatically. It isn't intrinsically insecure. > If you find-file in a directory where a malicious user has written a > .dir-locals.el file, he could theorically take advantage of it to root > you. Of course, normally emacs ask permission to evaluate a form, or to > set any variable he doesn't know to be safe. But if you type y or ! > carelessly, you can be hosed. But only if you approve using the local setting. And you would need to be exposed to hostile user attack in order to trigger it. If it is your laptop with you as the only user that is unlikely and answer yes without thinking probably won't hurt you. You can think less. You are more safe on your own machine where only you work. If you are an admin of a university system with clever kids poking at the system with social engineering attacks then you need to be more vigilant. But then you should always be vigilant in a hostile environment such as those. Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-08 19:49 ` Bob Proulx @ 2013-05-09 1:15 ` Stefan Monnier 2013-05-09 2:48 ` Bob Proulx 2013-05-09 7:25 ` Jonathan Groll 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2013-05-09 1:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > But emacs will always ask you if it should proceed due to that issue. > It will never do it automatically. It isn't intrinsically insecure. Well, that depends how paranoid you are. It used to be intrinsically insecure (only prompting the user for things known to be dicey) and has been improved over the years (always prompting unless told that it's safe), but there are so many variables marked as "safe" that might be used in unexpected ways by so many packages that "intrinsically secure" sounds naive. More specifically, I'd be *very* surprised if there aren't any "big security holes" waiting to be exploited in Emacs. > And you would need to be exposed to hostile user attack in order to > trigger it. Yes. I think that's what keeps you safe. Stefan "who uses Zile when running as root" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 1:15 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2013-05-09 2:48 ` Bob Proulx 2013-05-09 7:25 ` Jonathan Groll 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Bob Proulx @ 2013-05-09 2:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Stefan Monnier wrote: > Bob Proulx wrote: > > But emacs will always ask you if it should proceed due to that issue. > > It will never do it automatically. It isn't intrinsically insecure. > > Well, that depends how paranoid you are. It used to be intrinsically > insecure (only prompting the user for things known to be dicey) and has > been improved over the years (always prompting unless told that it's > safe), but there are so many variables marked as "safe" that might be > used in unexpected ways by so many packages that "intrinsically secure" > sounds naive. I didn't say "intrinsically secure". I said, "It isn't intrinsically INsecure." Which isn't the same thing. A couple of quotes come to mind. "It is hard to make things foolproof because fools are so clever." "You can make things foolproof. But you can't make them damn foolproof." :-) > More specifically, I'd be *very* surprised if there aren't any "big > security holes" waiting to be exploited in Emacs. Show me the bug report. Unless there is a bug report on *something*, anything, then I call shenanigans and say it is nothing but spreading FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt). Because just using the computer is a security hole. Which reminds me of another posting. There is only one truly secure computer system. http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/papers/a1-firewall/index.html > Stefan "who uses Zile when running as root" I don't know. I heard on the Internet that Zile has security vulnerabilities. (Part of the FUD, counter-FUD, campaign. I really don't have anything against Zile.) Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 1:15 ` Stefan Monnier 2013-05-09 2:48 ` Bob Proulx @ 2013-05-09 7:25 ` Jonathan Groll 2013-05-09 9:08 ` Tamas Papp 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Jonathan Groll @ 2013-05-09 7:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Wed, 08 May 2013 21:15:10 -0400, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote: > > But emacs will always ask you if it should proceed due to that issue. > > It will never do it automatically. It isn't intrinsically insecure. > > Well, that depends how paranoid you are. It used to be intrinsically > insecure (only prompting the user for things known to be dicey) and has > been improved over the years (always prompting unless told that it's > safe), but there are so many variables marked as "safe" that might be > used in unexpected ways by so many packages that "intrinsically secure" > sounds naive. > > More specifically, I'd be *very* surprised if there aren't any "big > security holes" waiting to be exploited in Emacs. > > > And you would need to be exposed to hostile user attack in order to > > trigger it. > > Yes. I think that's what keeps you safe. > > > Stefan "who uses Zile when running as root" Sure, you can forget you're root, (in all cases), but dired as root is maybe more than just a nice to have. For instance, it makes it easier to browse the system logfiles, etc. I can't say that I'd never use Emacs as root - it is simply too useful, and the trade-off of potential security risk versus utility seems to me to be one that I'm willing to make. Cheers, Jonathan -- jjg: Jonathan J. Groll : groll co za has_one { :blog => "http://bloggroll.com" } Any other Disclaimer in this mail is Wrong. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-09 7:25 ` Jonathan Groll @ 2013-05-09 9:08 ` Tamas Papp 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Tamas Papp @ 2013-05-09 9:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Thu, May 09 2013, Jonathan Groll wrote: > Sure, you can forget you're root, (in all cases), but dired as root is > maybe more than just a nice to have. For instance, it makes it easier > to browse the system logfiles, etc. I can't say that I'd never use > Emacs as root - it is simply too useful, and the trade-off of potential > security risk versus utility seems to me to be one that I'm willing to > make. I have similar preferences, but instead of running Emacs as root, I use tramp/su (or sudo on Ubuntu machines). I am not an expert about these issues, but I imagine that it is safer than running Emacs as root. Best, Tamas ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] <mailman.25145.1367723226.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-05 3:43 ` Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? Chad Brown @ 2013-05-05 10:14 ` Alan Mackenzie 2013-05-06 3:31 ` Jason White ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2013-05-05 10:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Hi, Steven! Steven Degutis <sbdegutis@gmail.com> wrote: > What's the use-case for having the terminal be able to act as an editor? "The" terminal? There are several. I run Emacs in a Linux virtual terminal, unless forced to use a GUI setup - e.g. for testing elisp. Why? Because I want to run Emacs without distractions, without window borders, without the mouse, without faffing around with fonts, and with my Emacs frame filling the _whole_ screen. As somebody else said, why use a graphic environment for manipulating pure text? A GUI is a general unspecific mush, whereas a TUI is optimised for text. Setting up Emacs on the virtual terminal is some work, agreed; you have to extend the rather sparse keyboard layouts, and then teach Emacs how to understand the new keyboard codes; working with several frames can be awkward, so I wrote a little utility for key <Fn> to switch to frame n. But the effort is worth it. To me, being able to run Emacs on a terminal is one of its chief attractions. > For me it's rather the other way around, I use the terminal within my > editor (eshell). You can do that on a terminal too. :-) > Seems like there's no real point in supporting terminal-mode in a text > editor these days. Well, thanks very much! I believe that Richard Stallman uses Emacs on a virtual terminal. It is sometimes useful to have an editor available during installation of a GUI, before that GUI is usable. Are you suggesting you're willing to put in the work to remove terminal support from Emacs? It'd be a lot of work. What would be the point? > -Steven -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-05 10:14 ` Alan Mackenzie @ 2013-05-06 3:31 ` Jason White 2013-05-06 9:52 ` ken [not found] ` <mailman.25215.1367811087.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-06 15:29 ` Joost Kremers 2 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Jason White @ 2013-05-06 3:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote: >Are you suggesting you're willing to put in the work to remove terminal >support from Emacs? It'd be a lot of work. What would be the point? Exactly. And if anyone is seriously proposing to remove terminal support, could they also implement all of the necessary ATK interfaces to enable my braille display to be used with Emacs under X11 and GTK? It works wonderfully at the console and also over ssh connections, thanks to the terminal display code in Emacs, removal of which would be a major regression for my use cases. I should mention that I use Emacspeak for speech output and highly recommend it; Emacspeak can run equally well in a terminal or under X, but for braille access (using a refreshable braille device) Emacs really must be run in a terminal session. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-06 3:31 ` Jason White @ 2013-05-06 9:52 ` ken 2013-05-06 9:56 ` Peter Dyballa [not found] ` <mailman.25227.1367834181.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: ken @ 2013-05-06 9:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jason White; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs On 05/05/2013 11:31 PM Jason White wrote: > Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote: > >> Are you suggesting you're willing to put in the work to remove terminal >> support from Emacs? It'd be a lot of work. What would be the point? > > Exactly. And if anyone is seriously proposing to remove terminal support, > could they also implement all of the necessary ATK interfaces to enable my > braille display to be used with Emacs under X11 and GTK? It works wonderfully > at the console and also over ssh connections, thanks to the terminal display > code in Emacs, removal of which would be a major regression for my use cases. > > I should mention that I use Emacspeak for speech output and highly recommend > it; Emacspeak can run equally well in a terminal or under X, but for braille > access (using a refreshable braille device) Emacs really must be run in a > terminal session. Occasionally I need to work on a remote server which doesn't have X running and have to do extensive editing, not trivial enough to use vi. So, yes, in those instances it's nice not to have to learn a new editor-- which would be the only alternative. Also, I've run emacs in batch mode to extensively edit thousands of files non-interactively all "at once", something which would have taxed my sed, awk, and grep skills and required a much longer time to develop than it did using emacs. Emacs isn't simply an editor in the sense that Word is an editor. Stallman, in fact, prefers the term "text processor" to describe emacs, and as the people above indicate, it's a very extensible one at that. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-06 9:52 ` ken @ 2013-05-06 9:56 ` Peter Dyballa [not found] ` <mailman.25227.1367834181.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Peter Dyballa @ 2013-05-06 9:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gebser; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Help Am 06.05.2013 um 11:52 schrieb ken: > Occasionally I need to work on a remote server which doesn't have X running and have to do extensive editing You can also use your local X server… -- Greetings Pete The light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off due to budget cuts. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25227.1367834181.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-08 10:22 ` Andrea Venturoli 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Andrea Venturoli @ 2013-05-08 10:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On 05/06/13 11:56, Peter Dyballa wrote: > > Am 06.05.2013 um 11:52 schrieb ken: > >> Occasionally I need to work on a remote server which doesn't have X running and have to do extensive editing > > You can also use your local X server… Which is some orders of magnitude slower... bye av. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
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* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? [not found] ` <mailman.25215.1367811087.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-06 13:13 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-05-06 13:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jason White <jason@jasonjgw.net> writes: > Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote: > >>Are you suggesting you're willing to put in the work to remove terminal >>support from Emacs? It'd be a lot of work. What would be the point? > > Exactly. And if anyone is seriously proposing to remove terminal support, > could they also implement all of the necessary ATK interfaces to enable my > braille display to be used with Emacs under X11 and GTK? It works wonderfully > at the console and also over ssh connections, thanks to the terminal display > code in Emacs, removal of which would be a major regression for my use cases. > > I should mention that I use Emacspeak for speech output and highly recommend > it; Emacspeak can run equally well in a terminal or under X, but for braille > access (using a refreshable braille device) Emacs really must be run in a > terminal session. As for the usage patterns, I should mention that it occurs often enough that I use both terminal frames and X11 frames. (And if Cocoa emacs was able to do it, I would also use X11 or terminal frames at the same time with a Cocoa window). Since I reboot emacs only when I need to reboot the underlying kernel, I connect to my emacs instances thru any kind of interface. I have on my desktop a MacOSX, a Linux and a MS-Windows-7 system, and I may also connect to it remotely. Therefore I may want to make frames from any of those interfaces to the same emacs instance. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ A bad day in () is better than a good day in {}. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? 2013-05-05 10:14 ` Alan Mackenzie 2013-05-06 3:31 ` Jason White [not found] ` <mailman.25215.1367811087.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-05-06 15:29 ` Joost Kremers 2 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Joost Kremers @ 2013-05-06 15:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Hi, Steven! > > Steven Degutis <sbdegutis@gmail.com> wrote: >> What's the use-case for having the terminal be able to act as an editor? > > "The" terminal? There are several. I run Emacs in a Linux virtual > terminal, unless forced to use a GUI setup - e.g. for testing elisp. > > Why? Because I want to run Emacs without distractions, without window > borders, without the mouse, without faffing around with fonts, and with my > Emacs frame filling the _whole_ screen. As somebody else said, why use a > graphic environment for manipulating pure text? A GUI is a general > unspecific mush, whereas a TUI is optimised for text. > > Setting up Emacs on the virtual terminal is some work, agreed; Then why bother, if you can have a full-screen Emacs without scroll bar, menu bar, tool bar, window borders etc. but *with* all the "ease" of running Emacs under X? Not that I'd be in favour of removing support for using Emacs in a (virtual) terminal, though. I use it myself sometimes for testing Elisp code in a VM (my 5yo computer would grind to a halt if I'd run X in a VM...) -- Joost Kremers joostkremers@fastmail.fm Selbst in die Unterwelt dringt durch Spalten Licht EN:SiS(9) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2013-05-22 11:01 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 85+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <mailman.25145.1367723226.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-05 3:43 ` Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? Chad Brown 2013-05-07 18:17 ` Cecil Westerhof 2013-05-08 2:30 ` Hugh Lawson 2013-05-08 9:35 ` Nicolas Richard 2013-05-08 15:53 ` Bob Proulx 2013-05-08 20:51 ` Nicolas Richard 2013-05-08 21:08 ` Steven Degutis 2013-05-22 11:01 ` Steinar Bang 2013-05-09 8:26 ` Peter Dyballa [not found] ` <mailman.25343.1368046244.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-08 23:21 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 2013-05-09 8:21 ` Thorsten Jolitz 2013-05-09 8:38 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-09 13:39 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 15:26 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-09 15:35 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 18:50 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-09 18:58 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-09 19:01 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 19:09 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-09 19:04 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 19:19 ` Óscar Fuentes 2013-05-09 19:27 ` Jai Dayal [not found] ` <mailman.25426.1368126295.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-09 19:09 ` Jay Belanger 2013-05-09 21:08 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-11 4:01 ` PJ Weisberg 2013-05-11 14:43 ` Stefan Monnier 2013-05-11 14:45 ` Jai Dayal [not found] ` <mailman.25436.1368133731.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-09 21:58 ` Jay Belanger 2013-05-09 16:00 ` Luca Ferrari 2013-05-09 16:02 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 16:19 ` Óscar Fuentes 2013-05-09 16:25 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 16:40 ` Óscar Fuentes 2013-05-09 16:46 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 17:04 ` Óscar Fuentes 2013-05-09 17:11 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 17:27 ` Óscar Fuentes 2013-05-09 17:50 ` Steven Degutis 2013-05-09 16:51 ` Óscar Fuentes [not found] ` <mailman.25407.1368118028.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-10 4:08 ` comint outside emacs (was Does anyone really use emacs in terminal?) rusi 2013-05-10 4:48 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 16:19 ` Does anyone really use emacs in terminal? Hongxu Chen 2013-05-09 16:27 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-11 18:13 ` Luca Ferrari 2013-05-11 18:14 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-11 19:12 ` Peter Dyballa [not found] ` <mailman.25563.1368296076.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-11 20:14 ` Jay Belanger 2013-05-11 21:11 ` Jai Dayal [not found] ` <mailman.25571.1368306670.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-11 21:40 ` Jay Belanger 2013-05-11 22:32 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-11 23:51 ` Dmitry Gutov 2013-05-12 8:30 ` Peter Dyballa 2013-05-12 8:44 ` Hongxu Chen [not found] ` <mailman.25594.1368348301.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-12 19:44 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 2013-05-12 20:00 ` Dan Espen 2013-05-12 20:53 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-12 21:18 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon [not found] ` <mailman.25612.1368392031.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-12 22:40 ` Dan Espen 2013-05-13 1:23 ` Jay Belanger 2013-05-12 20:52 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-13 5:58 ` Jonathan Groll [not found] ` <mailman.25577.1368311553.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-11 22:41 ` Jay Belanger 2013-05-12 0:04 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-12 13:46 ` Jonathan Groll [not found] ` <mailman.25583.1368317085.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-12 0:09 ` Jay Belanger 2013-05-12 2:27 ` Dan Espen 2013-05-12 6:32 ` Jai Dayal [not found] ` <mailman.25590.1368340339.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-12 14:07 ` Jay Belanger 2013-05-09 16:17 ` Hongxu Chen [not found] ` <mailman.25386.1368106748.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-09 13:43 ` notbob 2013-05-09 15:57 ` Jai Dayal 2013-05-09 16:53 ` Jay Belanger [not found] ` <mailman.25331.1368028437.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-08 16:51 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 2013-05-08 19:49 ` Bob Proulx 2013-05-09 1:15 ` Stefan Monnier 2013-05-09 2:48 ` Bob Proulx 2013-05-09 7:25 ` Jonathan Groll 2013-05-09 9:08 ` Tamas Papp 2013-05-05 10:14 ` Alan Mackenzie 2013-05-06 3:31 ` Jason White 2013-05-06 9:52 ` ken 2013-05-06 9:56 ` Peter Dyballa [not found] ` <mailman.25227.1367834181.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-08 10:22 ` Andrea Venturoli [not found] ` <mailman.25215.1367811087.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-05-06 13:13 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 2013-05-06 15:29 ` Joost Kremers
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