From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: not good proposal: "C-z " reserved for users Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 02:35:20 +0200 Message-ID: <640551af-d035-f133-3b98-fe7c7a06279d@yandex.ru> References: <871rdk4c1m.fsf@robertthorpeconsulting.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="675"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 Cc: gregory@heytings.org, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Robert Thorpe Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 14 01:36:06 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lB5OP-000Acp-TU for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 01:36:06 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57694 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lB5OO-0006IJ-Sy for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:36:04 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43134) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lB5Nn-0006IB-2Z for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:35:27 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x433.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::433]:42736) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lB5Nk-0000lY-W6 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:35:26 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x433.google.com with SMTP id r21so4375363wrr.9 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:35:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=64e6nzSPiYm/9KHCcdNiMjsSbAxzWWIMVBYWiXuXUFE=; b=Fu5VQN1ICQSJoRVb39y75/gk3SdOwom38lhkkAUkABwEFt7uCZwGvlMyrTgUdVo633 cD1S6WBgqhkVTPN4ijiqKvD4e8G2H2zLNorQuKc8lGHpQEPd2quwQl+yBtQICPpOy329 VYCXeTUXAKw3aJoGBa7tje6Jb9NZwdbeGi/nUPSBGry48QueZCGaK9Wo5qbL7Hw6RzI2 3P3V5HlLnfRVBqctP9uk2U/DjFqBqrvVUYTvLZ4/m10Sb77ylriK/QsBsr0HbYXNSlbK 2G/LZY1Jon61xNQz0G75BCPt9lhgp4YnGC7foF75sydrJG1dFkasPud7BDCDv88AiaJe BLAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=64e6nzSPiYm/9KHCcdNiMjsSbAxzWWIMVBYWiXuXUFE=; b=p/74tRUKaeYeIWSTOtTlqnvzZ0ichwVklJJydFmyI2kOWugPsEL/DIibNtQbQw4pvi Dzx2H1l0ng9+EBBHS3+b216/Cgiro38jQCS0z8PdNmKIxYhYa0LFW68ZWGc4g3c4mWMN U+bWo6N2oeizRTvkjbbqQvtqGlYaL78Ez8NzxplIu56FWoFxui2ZfdJ/b3ansBvbqBun MPZcBd0X8iAOm+F0zIPfU5lIV6GrQwukEBx20IIksXXw7U/xMPulRiEOEU7UBka7kvQt V5uGE/ypUpBF+cckQnvvKgD6oUzrsfmOk/f1RPz/06neMkN2ven5Hn5M5lghLBg+89IS es6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530/bS1inu0tSy8TY2eCzY+2VX344Amvxuq1wpT5L28KK9UkrUxY mZoJm/xSgE/CAIYj0xpXjs/FQ0Oo+P4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxwDGNSBM1b1F6bU1hp7QHAppH66YG+AnRNHJlHCruaA3DwrcroBFbpMKdbVFmQMDYzQKUBlA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:a4c8:: with SMTP id h8mr11713878wrb.286.1613262922715; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:35:22 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id r17sm16403182wrx.33.2021.02.13.16.35.21 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:35:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <871rdk4c1m.fsf@robertthorpeconsulting.com> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::433; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x433.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:127989 Archived-At: On 13.02.2021 10:17, Robert Thorpe wrote: > Dmitry Gutov writes: > >> On 12.02.2021 07:42, Robert Thorpe wrote: >> >>> I agree with Jean Louis on that too. I think C-z C-z is not good >>> enough. Every other terminal application uses C-z by itself, it's a >>> convention. It's been that way for decades. If you write a terminal >>> application and do nothing special then C-z will suspend it. That's >>> because it sends SIGTSTP. >> >> Could we someday stop considering Emacs a "terminal application"? Yes, >> it has a version that works in the terminal, but it's limited in >> features compared to the graphical one. > > I only use graphical Emacs myself. But I think that terminal Emacs is > still important, as Jean Louis says. > > Lots of people who have started using Emacs recently came to from the > terminal. You can see that on Emacs Reddit. Those are often former Vim developers, too. So it might not be due to the nature of their work, but largely due to their previous habits. It's not a 100% conclusion of the survey we have referred to previously, but its results state that ~30% of all users are in the terminal, ~30% of all users are using a Vim key bindings emulation, and ~30% of all users have been using Vim as their primary editor previously. They can't be all the same users, but it's an interesting coincidence. > I'm not a web developer myself, but it seems to have happened like > this.... Web people put their stuff on test servers to try it out. > Sometimes they prepare it or compile it on their own PC then copy it to > the test server. To save time some people started developing on the > test server using things like VNC or Microsoft Remote Desktop. That > removes the copying over step. Other would do tweaks to the code on the > server by direct editing on the server, but keep the main code on their > own PC. I'm a web developer by trade, so maybe I could clarify a few things. First, we don't usually edit the code on the server unless it's something really urgent and critical (and even then, we try not to). We edit the code on the local machine, check it into version control, and then perform the deployment using something like Ansible. We do automated testing, and for manual testing we usually do automated deployments as well, only on different servers. Editing code on the remote machine can happen, but it's usually something minor you don't need a full-featured editor for. And you don't have your personal Emacs config on that server anyway, so why even bother. Tramp is available as an alternative, too. Second, I'm the only one who uses Emacs in our department. Vim, VS Code and IntelliJ are the popular options. And I can see the reasons. So if you see me clamoring for change here, that's why. > All that worked until web services became popular. Then the test server > was no longer a nearby, dedicated server accessed by a fast network. It > was an instance on a virtualized machine far away. That has made using > graphical tools to access these test servers less practical. So, some > people have moved to terminal programs instead. A terminal editor like > Emacs is very useful for making quick changes on a remote virtual > machine. That seems to have brought Emacs to a new audience. I do see people working in the terminal, but that's either someone using Vim (which has no popular graphical UI still), or running tests, or doing some exploration in a REPL. Some edit code inside Docker, though. But I rarely ever see someone using the 'C-z' -> 'fg' pair, in fact, I struggle to remember anyone do that (except some of the sysadmins, I guess). I am aware of that capability myself, but never take advantage of it, opting instead for an additional split in the terminal emulator. Overall, it seems to be like it had been more important in the earlier age when operating systems had no real multitasking. Now we have terminal splits, and tmux, and so on. If it actually matters to the decision makers, I could make a poll or two (maybe on Reddit, maybe on my workplace) about whether people know about this feature, and whether they use it regularly. That's not to say I would vote for removing it in favor of just freeing a key binding. If we do it, it should be for something important, like making Emacs's key bindings more mainstream. Even if it's just C-z and C-Z.