From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Scott Randby Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:01:07 -0500 Message-ID: <5b2967d4-2428-c475-c37c-021c52cdca40@gmail.com> References: <20190218122758037230128@bob.proulx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="122372"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.4.0 To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 18 23:24:49 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1gvrLE-000Vkz-Te for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 23:24:49 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37555 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gvrLD-0004OE-PS for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:24:47 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58660) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gvrB3-0005cL-AB for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:14:19 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gvqyO-0006TB-0h for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:01:13 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-it1-x12f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]:54206) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gvqyN-0006ST-Mt for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:01:11 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-it1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id x131so1531339itc.3 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 14:01:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=q9ZSoREt0hy6LltbcMRlWO8/VHuCTRX6d8RcLqlMC4A=; b=hxbmq37Y7zosFDB+zmEYWvD3y9H6jbDq4GO+K+DDqAco7bfQ0eZRVNEfygbwPV4Pdv eHmiq8cfSf4cTBeX+aJO1E2ey7tIQ8cbvAZtL4IHnViKUtLmapwL2SlQmCo1iBMlIQTz GRKNAV99G7H58IQpRC0uSHkuBDolGd88QKOUa2LxwIt6IRXjBt6WaYRS40vxFaHKxsgr htRsLWCZbtC5NMi6z2m2VlNj6TWf6+3tMoEOYgcfDHv0a0klOVAhMPldESFrW3AsfuBp rYqIoBN6d4YQWQ6tZiH4gnFrmTGUZkFzlDIH8kEccvlU5Sa3Eh9u4jb1VfoYW6tWO3Qm blcg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=q9ZSoREt0hy6LltbcMRlWO8/VHuCTRX6d8RcLqlMC4A=; b=QXabqI8gjjeZFVSWNU4eCm/8dL/6eJpoyB3VsdlKtqazW/+5AT58SQnwxDhjI+wWJN pdK6KkphVy5ADXKOPfLxX9m4LBcVZ3AX6a+yO1Q1kypCV3/hOJb/z+KPhx6c7VFhfowt oA3481yM7V+3D1CQrAQgP3g4IkdJgfG1/cnkC9F2pFF/Wah5RzBsPczFb/GEOWqvGGDQ 4kjWGyNm3eqbe0OOMWCQPty4aDi1X8ZCaGaI6RLXUn+KgYtoJB2Cpzo39bYcQr0sw/Q8 /YJSJtlEWHgnFHn4Ozy9LKd+ZIOv6OndifYNYp61PQzAT6RjB0xGoQTUhUTvQxIOidH+ 6MXw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuYZSdZNeP2ct9+gKmFGRqCKOcV24vnrHA3EqmuvdZ+P3QJtcvuH b7Yn5Z/7TxPjk8zEZuAVise6aPYv X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZvN0Cb31CWo2GtQmobax7i6vQ941FqUnH7h+wFFZeD1ssTTgSVnMYQQUHBiYeXl4gUnzeEnQ== X-Received: by 2002:a5e:c70b:: with SMTP id f11mr14538961iop.39.1550527269821; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 14:01:09 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from [10.180.29.116] (host154-061.vpn.uakron.edu. [130.101.154.61]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w19sm303947ita.33.2019.02.18.14.01.08 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Feb 2019 14:01:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20190218122758037230128@bob.proulx.com> Content-Language: en-US X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:18:21 -0500 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:119451 Archived-At: Thank you for the detailed explanation. I've been removed from this list twice in the last week, but I haven't been removed from either Emacs-Devel or Emacs-Orgmode since I started subscribing to those lists years ago. Maybe I will never know why. Scott Randby On 2/18/19 2:40 PM, Bob Proulx wrote: > A PSA (Public Service Annoucement) for help-gnu-emacs. > > We have had several subscribers ask about a recent problem with > Google's Gmail rejecting the mailing list. Indeed about 30 Gmail > subscribers were bounced off the mailing list due to Google rejecting > mail from help-gnu-emacs. Other addresses were okay. > > This happens every so often. Google will decide that mail from a > mailing list is spam and reject all messages at SMTP mail transfer > time. Mailman receives those bounces and counts them up for each > recipient, not knowing anything about Google but only about bounces > per recipient. If the bounces for a recipient exceeds the Mailman > bounce threshold then Mailman turns off delivery for that recipient. > Then later Mailman will send a notice to the recipient that mail > delivery has been turned off and that they can turn it on again if > they still want it. > > Why does Google do this? I don't know. Google is a faceless > organization and they ignore complaints. I have never been able to > get a response from them. Fortunately Google seems to rate limit and > expire rather than block forever. So waiting long enough seems to > reset the problem. > > But in the specific case of mail from a mailing list there is a lot of > things that look like spam but are emacs lisp code sections and > config.log files and other output that may have similar characterists > to spam but are perfectly valid email messages on technical lists. > And then if users click "Junk" instead of unsubscribing that adds > positive feedback and tips things over the edge. > > Also I think Gmail users in general are a big part of the problem. > Users subscribe to a mailing list and then later decide they do not > want to be subscribed and instead of unsubscribing start to report > mailing list mail as spam. The automated machinery at Gmail then > learns the messages from the mailing list as spam and then starts to > reject messages from the mailing list as spam. Users I have talked to > personally just can't be bothered to unsubscribe when the "Junk" > action is so handy and do not believe they are hurting anyone else > just by clicking a box on a web page. They are astounded when I try > to convince them otherwise. > > Also the entire gnu.org subnet moved from one ISP to another ISP a > month ago. This means that any whitelists that were in place for the > previous subnet are no longer present for the new subnet. This > reputation service problem was a worried-about problem for the move. > No one wanted to move. But bandwidth is donated and there was no > option but to leave one donor and move to the new donor. > > Because there were a number of reports from people I thought I would > make an announcement here about it and communicate what was happening. > If someone at Gmail has been bounced off the only thing that can be > done at the moment is to wait a bit and then follow the Mailman > instructions mailed to turn mailing list delivery back on again. > > I don't know what we can do about it. But regardless I always welcome > communication from mailing list users about problems. If nothing else > we can all sympathize together. :-} > > Bob > >