From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: Emacs Book Vs Emacs Manuals Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4fc5d0d4-6045-41bb-9b15-c5327612c8ea@default> References: <87fv77barj.fsf@gnu.org> <87zj5fgpd8.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <83h9rnp0yy.fsf@gnu.org> <87r3qnl70z.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <837fsfm7gq.fsf@gnu.org> <991d9b3f-e2f4-4977-9e78-99d39b04ede5@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1431369576 22767 80.91.229.3 (11 May 2015 18:39:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 18:39:36 +0000 (UTC) To: Stefan Monnier , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon May 11 20:39:22 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrsbn-0008G7-3w for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 20:39:19 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39215 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrsbm-0000MG-8h for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:39:18 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38097) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrsbb-0000LH-3H for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:39:08 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YrsbV-0007c1-8M for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:39:07 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:51498) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YrsbV-0007bx-21 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:39:01 -0400 Original-Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t4BIcxUX010206 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 11 May 2015 18:39:00 GMT Original-Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t4BIcx76032343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 11 May 2015 18:38:59 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0018.oracle.com (abhmp0018.oracle.com [141.146.116.24]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t4BIcxPj024624; Mon, 11 May 2015 18:38:59 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:104404 Archived-At: > > No, those are not use cases for a *tutorial*. Those are use cases > > for a demo or a user guide or an introduction/overview. >=20 > I disagree. Someone who's interested in trying out Emacs might like > to write some Python code (say), and might be better served by a > tutorial that showcases what Emacs can do in that specific context, > focusing on how to use various features like completion, eldoc, > interaction with an inferior process, installing new ELPA packages, > looking up help, tweaking the indentation rules, ... So? You're just saying that such a person could benefit from a *tutorial* that is oriented toward using Emacs with Python. Nothing wrong with that. You can learn to bake cookies using a cookie-baking tutorial, and you can learn to feed turtles using a turtle-feeding tutorial. Why not? > > A tutorial is about learning by *doing*. >=20 > That's a property of its form, not its function. Tutorial vs demo vs user guide overview vs cheat sheet... *is* about form difference. The function of any or all such forms of help can be to serve as an introduction to learning a subject. They do it differently. And of course it is possible to combine different forms. You can call anything a tutorial if you like. I don't care. For me, a tutorial is something that involves the user *doing stuff*, not just viewing or reading. Think of the difference between reading a Shakespeare play and acting it out. A tutorial is inherently *interactive*. There is some (clear) way to "act it out"). There may even be several such ways. This is the case even if the way the recipe to follow is communicated by watching a video or playing a game or reading or telepathy or... Typically, a tutorial walks users through the recipe in some way, or helps them walk themselves through it. So yes, the difference that makes something a tutorial is a difference of form, but a tutorial can take multiple forms. If it is not easy to "follow along" by doing something yourself (at least doing something in imagination, but preferably physically too), then the learning tool is not much of a tutorial, IMO. It may still be a good learning tool, even if it is not a very good tutorial. A good tutorial has clear instructions, whether or not there might be multiple possibilities (different ways to follow, different routes to take).