Thunderbird to Emacs migration

Thunderbird to Emacs migration

[John Bokma]

I have been using Mozilla Thunderbird for many years. For the past year
or so I've been using Emacs more and more (first as editor, now also to
access Usenet), and I am wondering how easy migrating from Thunderbird
to Emacs would be and which Emacs email solution would be the best.
Yesterday I read a bit about RMail in the Emacs manual (book), but I am
aware that there are several more packages to work with Email.

Questions:

- which package(s) do you recommend for reading/writing email (I have
  several accounts, most POP3, and one IMAP. Some POP3 accounts use
  SSL/TLS with CRAM)

- is it possible to work directly with the email files Thunderbird
  creates, or do I have to convert them?

Ideally (for me) both programs should be able to use the same mail
files [1]. If not possible I would like to convert my current email to
something Emacs can handle, and start using Emacs for just reading my
email and see how it goes.

Thanks for reading,
John


[1] If I have to quit one program to be able to use the other one it's
    not a major issue, as long as I can keep one set of mail files.

-- 
John Bokma                                                               j3b

Hacking & Hiking in Mexico -  http://johnbokma.com/
http://castleamber.com/ - Perl & Python Development

Re: Thunderbird to Emacs migration

[Giorgos Keramidas]

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:08:37 -0600, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com> wrote:
> I have been using Mozilla Thunderbird for many years. For the past
> year or so I've been using Emacs more and more (first as editor, now
> also to access Usenet), and I am wondering how easy migrating from
> Thunderbird to Emacs would be and which Emacs email solution would be
> the best.

> Questions:
>
> - which package(s) do you recommend for reading/writing email (I have
>   several accounts, most POP3, and one IMAP. Some POP3 accounts use
>   SSL/TLS with CRAM)
>
> - is it possible to work directly with the email files Thunderbird
>   creates, or do I have to convert them?

Gnus is the mail reader I use.  I am still learning how to use it
effectively after almost two years, but it is a very nice program with
literally hundreds of options.  I've even written some Lisp code to
extend it and tweak its behavior in an automated manner.

Gnus should be able to pull your messages from multiple IMAP and POP3
accounts, but see below before you pull everything into Gnus.

> Ideally (for me) both programs should be able to use the same mail
> files [1]. If not possible I would like to convert my current email to
> something Emacs can handle, and start using Emacs for just reading my
> email and see how it goes.
>
> Thanks for reading,
> John
>
> [1] If I have to quit one program to be able to use the other one it's
>     not a major issue, as long as I can keep one set of mail files.

One of the most efficient storage format for Gnus folders is nnml.
Unfortunately this is Gnus-specific, so if you pull everything into nnml
folders you won't be able to use Thunderbird to access the same files.

One way that may work nicely for folder sharing is to use an IMAP server
at localhost.  Dovecot is a nice IMAP server that you can install on
your local system.  Then you can pull messages using 'fetchmail' or
'getmail' from multiple sources, stuff them into the IMAP server of the
localhost, and use Gnus or Thudnerbird to access 'imap://localhost'.

This way when one mailer updates the messages of a folder, or the read,
unread, deleted marks of a message, the other mailers who access the
same IMAP server at localhost will be able to see the same changes.

Regards and good luck with your mailer experiments,
Giorgos

Re: Thunderbird to Emacs migration

[David Rogoff]

On 2010-03-12 15:15:26 -0800, Giorgos Keramidas said:

> On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:08:37 -0600, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com> wrote:
>> I have been using Mozilla Thunderbird for many years. For the past
>> year or so I've been using Emacs more and more (first as editor, now
>> also to access Usenet), and I am wondering how easy migrating from
>> Thunderbird to Emacs would be and which Emacs email solution would be
>> the best.
> 
>> Questions:
>> 
>> - which package(s) do you recommend for reading/writing email (I have
>> several accounts, most POP3, and one IMAP. Some POP3 accounts use
>> SSL/TLS with CRAM)
>> 
>> - is it possible to work directly with the email files Thunderbird
>> creates, or do I have to convert them?
> 
> Gnus is the mail reader I use.  I am still learning how to use it
> effectively after almost two years, but it is a very nice program with
> literally hundreds of options.  I've even written some Lisp code to
> extend it and tweak its behavior in an automated manner.
> 
> Gnus should be able to pull your messages from multiple IMAP and POP3
> accounts, but see below before you pull everything into Gnus.

vm is much easier to use for mail than gnus.  gnus is great as a (text) 
Usenet newsreader, but it just wasn't designed as a mail program and 
the attempts to make it so have all seemed pretty crazy to me.  I gave 
it a try for a while but it just required the user to do things the way 
gnus wanted and not what made sense as a mail program.  I liked using 
vm and gnus together.  Any Usenet articles I wanted to save I could 
have gnus save into the folders I used for vm and read them later in vm.

vm works great and is compatible with TB's mail folders since they both 
use (well, vm can also use other formats too) good old rfc822 / mbox 
text files.  TB adds index files to speed up access, which I don't 
think vm will use.  Here's some more detail: 
http://www.z-a-recovery.com/thunderbird-email-database.htm

My info is probably a couple of years out of date (my company's IT dept 
only supported Outlook/exchange), so there may be some recent changes, 
but I went back and forth between TB (Netscape mail before that) and vm 
with little problem for a few years.

However, as much as I'm an emacs advocate (been using it virtually 
every day for 22 years) and an advocate of plain text files (just 
started using org-mode a lot), I don't know if I'd go back to it for 
mail. There's so much HTML, RTF, and other enhanced mail messages I 
have to deal with every day that I've given in.

Try just running M-x vm-visit-folder and point to one of your TB mail 
files. It should just load it and you can see how you like reading 
messages in vm without having to deal with all the setup for 
downloading messages.

 David

Re: Thunderbird to Emacs migration

[Giorgos Keramidas]

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 21:17:47 -0800, David Rogoff <david@therogoffs.com> wrote:
>On 2010-03-12 15:15:26 -0800, Giorgos Keramidas said:
>> Gnus is the mail reader I use.  I am still learning how to use it
>> effectively after almost two years, but it is a very nice program
>> with literally hundreds of options.  I've even written some Lisp code
>> to extend it and tweak its behavior in an automated manner.
>>
>> Gnus should be able to pull your messages from multiple IMAP and POP3
>> accounts, but see below before you pull everything into Gnus.
>
> vm is much easier to use for mail than gnus.  gnus is great as a
> (text) Usenet newsreader, but it just wasn't designed as a mail
> program and the attempts to make it so have all seemed pretty crazy to
> me.  I gave it a try for a while but it just required the user to do
> things the way gnus wanted and not what made sense as a mail program.
> I liked using vm and gnus together.  Any Usenet articles I wanted to
> save I could have gnus save into the folders I used for vm and read
> them later in vm.

I started using Gnus for Usenet too.  Then my Usenet time got way
smaller than the time I spent inside mutt.  So I experimented with Gnus
for email too.  Now I'm hooked up on features like:

  * Offline mode -- the ability to read messages and post while being
    disconnected from the network.

  * Excellent MIME and charset support -- the ability to read almost any
    charset some random mailer can throw at Emacs, using the standard
    and familiar recoding facilities of Emacs and a general "do the
    right thing" automation in Gnus

  * GnuPG and keyring support -- the signing and encryption keys of Gnus
    are now literally hardcoded in my spinal cord; I no longer have to
    'think' about how to encrypt or sign selected parts of a message or
    a full message including dozens of attachments

I still have to struggle a bit with the archiving methods of Gnus from
time to time, but I like its good parts so much that I keep saying to
myself I will try VM one day and then I keep happily using Gnus, without
actually giving VM a few months of usage to see if I like it.

So VM is probably a good Emacs-based mailer, but I don't know enough
about it to either recommend it to someone else or to be able to phrase
a useful opinion about it.

Re: Thunderbird to Emacs migration

[Galen Boyer]

David Rogoff <david@therogoffs.com> writes:

> On 2010-03-12 15:15:26 -0800, Giorgos Keramidas said:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:08:37 -0600, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com> wrote:

[...]

> vm is much easier to use for mail than gnus.  gnus is great as a
> (text) Usenet newsreader, but it just wasn't designed as a mail
> program and the attempts to make it so have all seemed pretty crazy to
> me.  

I think that statement is missing the "IMHO", because lots of folks do
not agree with you.  I love Gnus treating mail as just another
newsgroup, because to me, that is what mail should be treated as.

> I gave it a try for a while but it just required the user to do things
> the way gnus wanted and not what made sense as a mail program.  

Lars probably answered that in calling VM a "proper mail reader".

-- 
Galen Boyer

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

Re: Thunderbird to Emacs migration

[Vagn Johansen]

David Rogoff <david@therogoffs.com> writes:

> vm is much easier to use for mail than gnus.  gnus is great as a
> (text) Usenet newsreader, but it just wasn't designed as a mail
> program and the attempts to make it so have all seemed pretty crazy to
> me.  I gave it a try for a while but it just required the user to do
> things the way gnus wanted and not what made sense as a mail program.

Could you give some examples of how gnus is unlike a "normal" mail
program?

As a gnus user I am genuinely curious. I wonder what I have forgotten
about "real" mail programs :-)

-- 
Vagn Johansen

Re: Thunderbird to Emacs migration

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Vagn Johansen <gonz808@hotmail.com> writes:

> David Rogoff <david@therogoffs.com> writes:
>
>> vm is much easier to use for mail than gnus.  gnus is great as a
>> (text) Usenet newsreader, but it just wasn't designed as a mail
>> program and the attempts to make it so have all seemed pretty crazy to
>> me.  I gave it a try for a while but it just required the user to do
>> things the way gnus wanted and not what made sense as a mail program.
>
> Could you give some examples of how gnus is unlike a "normal" mail
> program?
>
> As a gnus user I am genuinely curious. I wonder what I have forgotten
> about "real" mail programs :-)

For me, the most disturbing difference is how gnus hides read messages.
When I read mail, I want to keep seeing the read messages.  I keep in my
mailboxes (including my INBOX) a lot of messages received (sometimes
several years ago), that I still need to act on, and to be able to see.

Kind of a constantly nabbing todo list...

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__

Re: Thunderbird to Emacs migration

[Teemu Likonen]

* 2010-03-14 12:42 (+0100), Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:

> Vagn Johansen <gonz808@hotmail.com> writes:
>> Could you give some examples of how gnus is unlike a "normal" mail
>> program?

> For me, the most disturbing difference is how gnus hides read
> messages. When I read mail, I want to keep seeing the read messages. I
> keep in my mailboxes (including my INBOX) a lot of messages received
> (sometimes several years ago), that I still need to act on, and to be
> able to see.

How about the group parameter (display . all)? Something like this:

    (setq gnus-parameters '(("^nnml:"
                             (display . all))))

Re: Thunderbird to Emacs migration

[Uday S Reddy]

[Expanded circulation to gnu.emacs.vm.info]

VM version 8.1.0 has a couple of features in the Change Log that are relevant to the discussion here:

    * Added syncing of message status when visiting a mbox of Thunderbird.
      Not all message flags are interchangeable and the message summary
      file (.msf) of Thunderbird will get removed by VM in order to force
      Thunderbird to rebuild it.  Also VMs folder index will be skipped if
      it is older than the folder in order to update VMs message status flags.

    * Improved text/html displaying by w3m.  Inline images are now extracted
      correctly and they also display now.  Added a generic handler code to
      support also other HTML handlers.

These were contributed by Robert Widhopf-Fenk and Katsumi Yamaoka.  8.1.0 is currently available as a pre-release on the Launchpad development site, https://www.launchpad.net/vm,

I myself use w3m for HTML messages regularly and think it is quite brilliant.  I don't have any experience with the interoperation with Thunderbird.  But I was happy to hear about David's experience in switching between VM and Thunderbird.  The compatibility features added by Robert should make it even easier to interoperate.

Cheers,
Uday Reddy



David Rogoff wrote:
> On 2010-03-12 15:15:26 -0800, Giorgos Keramidas said:
> 
>> On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:08:37 -0600, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
>> wrote:
>>> I have been using Mozilla Thunderbird for many years. For the past
>>> year or so I've been using Emacs more and more (first as editor, now
>>> also to access Usenet), and I am wondering how easy migrating from
>>> Thunderbird to Emacs would be and which Emacs email solution would be
>>> the best.
>>
>>> Questions:
>>>
>>> - which package(s) do you recommend for reading/writing email (I have
>>> several accounts, most POP3, and one IMAP. Some POP3 accounts use
>>> SSL/TLS with CRAM)
>>>
>>> - is it possible to work directly with the email files Thunderbird
>>> creates, or do I have to convert them?
>>
>> Gnus is the mail reader I use.  I am still learning how to use it
>> effectively after almost two years, but it is a very nice program with
>> literally hundreds of options.  I've even written some Lisp code to
>> extend it and tweak its behavior in an automated manner.
>>
>> Gnus should be able to pull your messages from multiple IMAP and POP3
>> accounts, but see below before you pull everything into Gnus.
> 
> vm is much easier to use for mail than gnus.  gnus is great as a (text)
> Usenet newsreader, but it just wasn't designed as a mail program and the
> attempts to make it so have all seemed pretty crazy to me.  I gave it a
> try for a while but it just required the user to do things the way gnus
> wanted and not what made sense as a mail program.  I liked using vm and
> gnus together.  Any Usenet articles I wanted to save I could have gnus
> save into the folders I used for vm and read them later in vm.
> 
> vm works great and is compatible with TB's mail folders since they both
> use (well, vm can also use other formats too) good old rfc822 / mbox
> text files.  TB adds index files to speed up access, which I don't think
> vm will use.  Here's some more detail:
> http://www.z-a-recovery.com/thunderbird-email-database.htm
> 
> My info is probably a couple of years out of date (my company's IT dept
> only supported Outlook/exchange), so there may be some recent changes,
> but I went back and forth between TB (Netscape mail before that) and vm
> with little problem for a few years.
> 
> However, as much as I'm an emacs advocate (been using it virtually every
> day for 22 years) and an advocate of plain text files (just started
> using org-mode a lot), I don't know if I'd go back to it for mail.
> There's so much HTML, RTF, and other enhanced mail messages I have to
> deal with every day that I've given in.
> 
> Try just running M-x vm-visit-folder and point to one of your TB mail
> files. It should just load it and you can see how you like reading
> messages in vm without having to deal with all the setup for downloading
> messages.
> 
> David
>