From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rainer M Krug Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Issues with emacs Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 18:48:11 +0200 Message-ID: <4FE744CB.4020601@gmail.com> References: <87bokbb4zw.fsf@gnu.org><4FE6E8A1.5060107@gmail.com><61A0BF66CAD94FF8AC3DE69FEA31BCB2@us.oracle.com> <4FE7353F.1000603@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1340556512 27269 80.91.229.3 (24 Jun 2012 16:48:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 16:48:32 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 24 18:48:32 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1SipzD-0003Ly-VI for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 18:48:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47240 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SipzD-0003Y8-Sf for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:48:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:34369) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Sipz8-0003Xq-IK for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:48:28 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Sipz6-00077F-7t for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:48:25 -0400 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:58782) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Sipz5-000777-TA for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:48:24 -0400 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Sipz3-0003Fi-EF for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 18:48:21 +0200 Original-Received: from arn78-1-88-186-171-7.fbx.proxad.net ([88.186.171.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 18:48:21 +0200 Original-Received: from R.M.Krug by arn78-1-88-186-171-7.fbx.proxad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 18:48:21 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 63 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: arn78-1-88-186-171-7.fbx.proxad.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120615 Thunderbird/13.0.1 In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:85432 Archived-At: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 24/06/12 18:07, Drew Adams wrote: >>> Improving the use of menus and improving doc/help access is approachable by nearly anyone. >>> Menu implementation is a bit complicated, and so are keymaps. But once past the initial >>> hurdle it is not hard to make a concrete implementation improvement/proposal. Whether a >>> particular proposal gets adopted is another story. But your chances are much higher with >>> code than with abstract expectations or whining about "modern" and "nowadays" this or >>> that. >> >> Ups - I just hope that this refers to me: I definitely did not "whine that emacs is not >> modern enough", nor did I want to complain tat emacs is not "modern" enough for "nowadays" >> computer users. > > No, Rainer, not at all. I was not referring to anything said by anyone in this thread. I was > speaking generally, based on lots of threads and other discussions over the years. > > And let me be clearer: There is _nothing wrong with complaining_, whether or not someone has a > positive suggestion or, better, a proposed code change - as long as readers are respected as > people and not insulted or attacked personally, obviously. > > The closer feedback is to a concrete suggestion, code patch, or reasoned technical argument, > the more useful it is likely to be. That's all. > > No one, including me, should discourage feedback that does not necessarily make a concrete > proposal. Complaints, no matter how expressed or how vague, have their place and can be > constructive in the end - and no matter how they might be received. > > The point is not for anyone to avoid complaining. It is just to suggest that if you _can_ be > concrete, give reasons, and maybe even suggest code changes, then the chances of consideration > generally improve. Just advice/suggestion. > > And as I tried to make clear, even a well reasoned, concrete proposal based on a good idea and > with a clean code patch is far from a guarantee of acceptance. Just because you express your > idea well and you are convinced that it represents an improvement, that does not mean that > others will see things the same way. ;-) Don't take such rejection personally, and don't let it > dissuade you from continuing to try to improve things. > > Those who decide have been wrong about many things over the years. And they have also been > right about many things. If they are wrong about about a suggestion you make, so be it. Good points and lets hope that this discussion will help to make emacs even wider accepted as it is now. Cheers, Rainer > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/nRMsACgkQoYgNqgF2egrfJgCeI7z08K4O9QWbfUSTIUbPN4QR ocAAn0sSdyjQ+PNIcME2UJSR0sESkY/6 =s7+f -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----