From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rainer M Krug Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Issues with emacs Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 17:41:51 +0200 Message-ID: <4FE7353F.1000603@gmail.com> References: <87bokbb4zw.fsf@gnu.org> <4FE6E8A1.5060107@gmail.com> <61A0BF66CAD94FF8AC3DE69FEA31BCB2@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1340552542 31753 80.91.229.3 (24 Jun 2012 15:42:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:42:22 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 24 17:42:20 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Siox9-00045x-J4 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 17:42:19 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57741 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Siox9-0007mS-GG for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:42:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:51460) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Siowz-0007dK-KZ for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:42:11 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Siowx-0000BH-AY for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:42:09 -0400 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:39966) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Sioww-0000BB-Uo for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:42:07 -0400 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Siows-0003th-MR for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 17:42:02 +0200 Original-Received: from arn78-1-88-186-171-7.fbx.proxad.net ([88.186.171.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 17:42:02 +0200 Original-Received: from R.M.Krug by arn78-1-88-186-171-7.fbx.proxad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 17:42:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 98 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: arn78-1-88-186-171-7.fbx.proxad.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120615 Thunderbird/13.0.1 In-Reply-To: <61A0BF66CAD94FF8AC3DE69FEA31BCB2@us.oracle.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:85427 Archived-At: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 24/06/12 16:18, Drew Adams wrote: >> 1) improve the menu to live up to "moderm" menu standards, so that efffectually everything >> could be done by using the mouse (*but most definitely keep the keyboard shortcuts!!!!!!!). I >> know that this is not possible for all additional packages, but at least the emacs core >> should be usable completely via mouse. >> >> 2) improve the GUI look, to conform more with a "modern" look >> >> 3) change the menu, so that there the new users learns to do the stuff by using the mose >> (and introduce the keyboard e.g. in brackets). >> >> - From my experience: when (or in many cases "if") the new user manages to accept and use way >> of using emacs (now via initially *very strange* keyboard shortcuts) to reach the brilliant >> features and tha land off possibilities hidden behind, they will stay. If the initial >> crossing of the border can be done easier, more users will discover the wonders of emacs. > > 1. FWIW, I agree with this. Menus are a great way to discover. They need to be well > organized, of course. But given good organization, that organization can be a tremendous > learning aid (and a memory aid). > > In my libraries I generally spend time trying to (a) put more stuff on menus, (b) get the menu > item terminology right, and (c) organize the menus well. Not that I always succeed (yes, it > takes time, thought, and practice using the resulting menus), but I try. > > This is also a motivation behind La Carte (easier keyboard access to menus) and Icicles > (combined with La Carte, access menu items at any level using substrings, regexps etc.). > > http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/LaCarte > http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsNewbieWithIcicles#toc7 > > 2. Likewise, the mouse. A direct-access pointing device is a tremendous asset to human-machine > interaction. > > (That notion is anathema to some Emacs folk, though you would think that brief reflection on > tape-vs-disk access would be enough to turn on the light. Yes, of course Emacs has > direct-access key sequences, but a mouse gives you direct access _anywhere_: look, point to a > destination, bam!) > > 3. There is a place for _both_ (a) in-depth documentation and (b) well designed keyboard > shortcuts, on the one hand, and (c) well designed menus and (d) mouse interaction, on the other > hand. > > 4. Emacs has moved from only doc and only keyboard (and only console - no frames) toward > incorporation of more "modern" GUI stuff. > > But most of that movement happened long, long ago, when those things first became possible to > add to Emacs (back when X Window and window managers in general were new). And most of it > happened outside the GNU Emacs development stream and was only incorporated later (and > sometimes not too enthusiastically). Epoch and XEmacs get kudos here, to mention just two. > > And yes, there is still a long way to go. > > 5. If you are interested in going further, please contribute and participate. It is (as has > amply been demonstrated) not enough to whine that Emacs is not "modern" enough, and to expect > the old guard to step up to the plate and do what you think should be done. Whether what you > want gets done depends on you. > > Improving the use of menus and improving doc/help access is approachable by nearly anyone. > Menu implementation is a bit complicated, and so are keymaps. But once past the initial hurdle > it is not hard to make a concrete implementation improvement/proposal. Whether a particular > proposal gets adopted is another story. But your chances are much higher with code than with > abstract expectations or whining about "modern" and "nowadays" this or that. Ups - I just hope that this refers to me: I definitely did not "whine that emacs is not modern enough", nor did I want to complain tat emacs is not "modern" enough for "nowadays" computer users. I just gave my opinion why I think, from personal experience, many people do prefer other editors. I do not complain about this - I though this thread was about raising points why not more people are using emacs? If this was wrong, my apologies. Although I do not have the time nor the knowledge to improve emacs in this regard, I think this is an important point which should be kept in mind. And I am looking forward to my next project which will again involve again lots of "old fashioned emacs use". Cheers, Rainer > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/nNT4ACgkQoYgNqgF2egr+QgCeIolTH6GKhuaa0um/ukmke2F4 /hAAnjA1ww3bg0x34odVVB1xFnr+Vqx2 =U1gv -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----