From: Rainer M Krug <R.M.Krug@gmail.com>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Issues with emacs
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 17:41:51 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <4FE7353F.1000603@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <61A0BF66CAD94FF8AC3DE69FEA31BCB2@us.oracle.com>
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On 24/06/12 16:18, Drew Adams wrote:
>> 1) improve the menu to live up to "moderm" menu standards, so that efffectually everything
>> could be done by using the mouse (*but most definitely keep the keyboard shortcuts!!!!!!!). I
>> know that this is not possible for all additional packages, but at least the emacs core
>> should be usable completely via mouse.
>>
>> 2) improve the GUI look, to conform more with a "modern" look
>>
>> 3) change the menu, so that there the new users learns to do the stuff by using the mose
>> (and introduce the keyboard e.g. in brackets).
>>
>> - From my experience: when (or in many cases "if") the new user manages to accept and use way
>> of using emacs (now via initially *very strange* keyboard shortcuts) to reach the brilliant
>> features and tha land off possibilities hidden behind, they will stay. If the initial
>> crossing of the border can be done easier, more users will discover the wonders of emacs.
>
> 1. FWIW, I agree with this. Menus are a great way to discover. They need to be well
> organized, of course. But given good organization, that organization can be a tremendous
> learning aid (and a memory aid).
>
> In my libraries I generally spend time trying to (a) put more stuff on menus, (b) get the menu
> item terminology right, and (c) organize the menus well. Not that I always succeed (yes, it
> takes time, thought, and practice using the resulting menus), but I try.
>
> This is also a motivation behind La Carte (easier keyboard access to menus) and Icicles
> (combined with La Carte, access menu items at any level using substrings, regexps etc.).
>
> http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/LaCarte
> http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsNewbieWithIcicles#toc7
>
> 2. Likewise, the mouse. A direct-access pointing device is a tremendous asset to human-machine
> interaction.
>
> (That notion is anathema to some Emacs folk, though you would think that brief reflection on
> tape-vs-disk access would be enough to turn on the light. Yes, of course Emacs has
> direct-access key sequences, but a mouse gives you direct access _anywhere_: look, point to a
> destination, bam!)
>
> 3. There is a place for _both_ (a) in-depth documentation and (b) well designed keyboard
> shortcuts, on the one hand, and (c) well designed menus and (d) mouse interaction, on the other
> hand.
>
> 4. Emacs has moved from only doc and only keyboard (and only console - no frames) toward
> incorporation of more "modern" GUI stuff.
>
> But most of that movement happened long, long ago, when those things first became possible to
> add to Emacs (back when X Window and window managers in general were new). And most of it
> happened outside the GNU Emacs development stream and was only incorporated later (and
> sometimes not too enthusiastically). Epoch and XEmacs get kudos here, to mention just two.
>
> And yes, there is still a long way to go.
>
> 5. If you are interested in going further, please contribute and participate. It is (as has
> amply been demonstrated) not enough to whine that Emacs is not "modern" enough, and to expect
> the old guard to step up to the plate and do what you think should be done. Whether what you
> want gets done depends on you.
>
> Improving the use of menus and improving doc/help access is approachable by nearly anyone.
> Menu implementation is a bit complicated, and so are keymaps. But once past the initial hurdle
> it is not hard to make a concrete implementation improvement/proposal. Whether a particular
> proposal gets adopted is another story. But your chances are much higher with code than with
> abstract expectations or whining about "modern" and "nowadays" this or that.
Ups - I just hope that this refers to me: I definitely did not "whine that emacs is not modern
enough", nor did I want to complain tat emacs is not "modern" enough for "nowadays" computer users.
I just gave my opinion why I think, from personal experience, many people do prefer other editors.
I do not complain about this - I though this thread was about raising points why not more people
are using emacs? If this was wrong, my apologies.
Although I do not have the time nor the knowledge to improve emacs in this regard, I think this is
an important point which should be kept in mind.
And I am looking forward to my next project which will again involve again lots of "old fashioned
emacs use".
Cheers,
Rainer
>
>
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2012-06-24 15:41 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 123+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <mailman.2952.1339986753.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-18 3:22 ` Emacs users a dying breed? Pascal J. Bourguignon
2012-06-18 9:32 ` djc
2012-06-18 10:25 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2012-06-18 17:09 ` Ken Goldman
2012-06-21 15:27 ` rusi
2012-06-22 6:19 ` Tom
2012-06-22 8:45 ` Jeremiah Dodds
2012-06-22 9:40 ` Tom
2012-06-22 11:07 ` Bastien
2012-06-22 11:16 ` Andreas Röhler
2012-06-24 23:19 ` James Freer
2012-06-25 7:23 ` give emacs --daemon / emacsclient a try (was: Re: Emacs users a dying breed?) Gregor Zattler
[not found] ` <mailman.3407.1340581002.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-25 2:58 ` Emacs for writers (was " rusi
2012-06-25 9:38 ` James Freer
2012-06-26 21:47 ` James Freer
[not found] ` <mailman.3534.1340747277.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-27 3:41 ` rusi
2012-06-22 13:13 ` Emacs users a dying breed? Tom
[not found] ` <mailman.3233.1340370922.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-22 14:12 ` Jay Belanger
2012-06-22 15:02 ` Tom
[not found] ` <mailman.3245.1340377350.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-22 18:25 ` John Bokma
2012-06-22 11:17 ` Jeremiah Dodds
2012-06-22 12:03 ` Andreas Röhler
2012-06-22 12:21 ` Richard Riley
2012-06-22 13:04 ` Jonathan Groll
2012-06-23 11:33 ` Philipp Haselwarter
2012-06-23 12:05 ` Teemu Likonen
2012-06-23 12:35 ` Philipp Haselwarter
2012-06-23 12:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-06-23 13:53 ` S Boucher
2012-06-23 12:37 ` suvayu ali
2012-06-25 19:00 ` Ken Goldman
2012-06-23 14:02 ` S Boucher
2012-06-22 12:46 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2012-06-22 13:27 ` Andreas Röhler
2012-06-22 13:45 ` Doug Lewan
2012-06-22 13:09 ` Tom
2012-07-02 11:36 ` Mihamina Rakotomandimby
2012-06-22 15:08 ` Issues with emacs (was Emacs users a dying breed?) rusi
2012-06-22 15:26 ` Issues with emacs Pascal J. Bourguignon
2012-06-23 2:28 ` rusi
2012-06-23 9:47 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2012-06-22 16:41 ` Issues with emacs (was Emacs users a dying breed?) Drew Adams
2012-06-22 18:01 ` Bastien
2012-06-23 20:04 ` Tom
2012-06-24 11:38 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2012-06-24 14:00 ` Drew Adams
2012-06-25 19:23 ` Ludwig, Mark
[not found] ` <mailman.3361.1340537904.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-24 13:52 ` Issues with emacs Pascal J. Bourguignon
[not found] ` <mailman.3330.1340481863.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-23 23:49 ` Dan Espen
2012-06-24 1:24 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2012-06-24 2:39 ` ken
2012-06-25 18:02 ` Sivaram Neelakantan
2012-06-26 3:03 ` becoming a developer [was: Re: Issues with emacs] ken
[not found] ` <mailman.3485.1340679833.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-26 3:23 ` rusi
[not found] ` <CAPyVhy_fL3KLrNzqOMbg69UqUMAKPmXbbu7gVYQcK+KiML44hA@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <CAJ+Teof7T6qXdztq_Pjh+S8gVXQV-ToYJ6EQrPNYQAumn_aDOA@mail.gmail.com>
2012-06-27 13:38 ` antoine no
2012-06-27 17:44 ` Aurélien Aptel
2012-06-26 12:29 ` becoming a lisp developer Pascal J. Bourguignon
2012-06-27 15:36 ` ken
2012-06-27 16:12 ` PJ Weisberg
[not found] ` <mailman.3561.1340811384.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-27 16:09 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
[not found] ` <mailman.3455.1340647361.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-25 18:40 ` Issues with emacs notbob
2012-06-25 19:05 ` Glyn Millington
[not found] ` <mailman.3348.1340505598.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-24 6:39 ` rusi
2012-06-24 7:01 ` Corentin Henry
2012-06-24 7:55 ` Andreas Röhler
2012-06-24 16:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-06-24 17:38 ` Andreas Röhler
2012-06-24 18:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <mailman.3355.1340524541.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-24 12:17 ` notbob
2012-06-24 13:24 ` Deniz Dogan
2012-06-24 14:42 ` Yuri Khan
2012-06-24 15:08 ` Gregory Benjamin
2012-06-25 19:26 ` Deniz Dogan
2012-06-24 16:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-06-25 19:25 ` Deniz Dogan
2012-06-24 13:36 ` Richard Riley
[not found] ` <mailman.3362.1340544276.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-24 14:03 ` notbob
2012-06-24 16:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-06-24 10:14 ` Rainer M Krug
2012-06-24 14:18 ` Drew Adams
2012-06-24 15:41 ` Rainer M Krug [this message]
2012-06-24 16:07 ` Drew Adams
2012-06-24 16:48 ` Rainer M Krug
[not found] ` <mailman.3354.1340521292.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-24 12:15 ` notbob
2012-06-24 14:02 ` Drew Adams
2012-06-25 3:54 ` ken
[not found] ` <mailman.3424.1340596458.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-25 5:51 ` rusi
2012-06-25 7:45 ` Helmut Eller
2012-06-25 8:57 ` Tom
2012-06-25 21:24 ` Jeremiah Dodds
2012-06-26 5:50 ` Tom
2012-06-26 20:08 ` Jeremiah Dodds
[not found] ` <mailman.3486.1340689846.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-26 13:29 ` notbob
2012-06-26 17:47 ` Dustin Hemmerling
2012-06-26 18:13 ` Sivaram Neelakantan
2012-06-26 18:32 ` Richard Riley
2012-06-28 12:14 ` Tom
[not found] ` <mailman.3520.1340735564.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-26 19:28 ` notbob
2012-06-26 19:49 ` Ludwig, Mark
2012-06-26 19:52 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2012-06-27 15:49 ` PJ Weisberg
2012-06-28 2:09 ` John Wiegley
[not found] ` <mailman.3523.1340740164.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-26 20:13 ` notbob
2012-06-26 23:57 ` John Wiegley
2012-06-27 9:23 ` temacs Jambunathan K
2012-06-27 14:44 ` temacs Ken Goldman
2012-06-28 2:40 ` temacs John Wiegley
2012-06-28 8:49 ` temacs Bastien
2012-06-29 19:37 ` temacs Ken Goldman
[not found] ` <mailman.3732.1340998682.855.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2012-06-30 3:51 ` temacs rusi
2012-06-27 14:44 ` temacs suvayu ali
2012-06-27 16:24 ` temacs Alp Aker
2012-06-27 19:57 ` temacs Ken Goldman
2012-07-05 4:14 ` temacs John Wiegley
2012-07-05 12:46 ` temacs Eli Zaretskii
2012-07-07 16:51 ` temacs John Wiegley
2012-07-07 17:20 ` temacs Eli Zaretskii
2012-06-27 15:48 ` Issues with emacs Stefan Monnier
2012-06-26 3:08 ` rusi
2012-06-26 8:35 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2012-06-27 5:54 ` MBR
2012-06-26 18:03 ` Bug Dout
2012-06-25 2:43 ` Issues with emacs (was Emacs users a dying breed?) Ugly Sean
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