From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philipp Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Which Elisp types are mutable? Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 20:41:58 +0200 Message-ID: <4AA1E624-B979-4B08-8AE0-E33A1C9A0E94@gmail.com> References: <87h7ifa932.fsf@mbork.pl> <0404DE66-DD17-41F2-B6CC-EC06937CD152@gmail.com> <874keca73x.fsf@mbork.pl> <70773EA8-6549-4C03-941C-FADAB1BE441A@gmail.com> <8735tw9l14.fsf@mbork.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2134"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Help Gnu Emacs mailing list To: Marcin Borkowski Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 05 20:43:00 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m0TYa-0000MQ-6v for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 20:43:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44252 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m0TYZ-0008Op-7Y for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 14:42:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50604) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m0TXh-0008Og-90 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 14:42:05 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x329.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::329]:43576) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m0TXe-0005JB-8F for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 14:42:04 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x329.google.com with SMTP id q18-20020a1ce9120000b02901f259f3a250so564540wmc.2 for ; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 11:42:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=MTh8S0IRjY9HEFdPE1LWpdH0q0Ff/0JT+CwFZGEPC60=; b=LDTBbD1xI1L4Je9nu9f2Mtjq+jo4Sw4MgI/142Uzs6DbenwwBrnspCGaacfh8s4cRA 6IuaUCP8Z6Yzhv6HmpokbBVr7P8pGDjcWDnc31Co/YEVeaX45GZwJUlgtVbec2E0fU75 0ZS5V7G7wNHxuMt1s6BeZUbHJr6eLPw4UaSNvwJVMDbSvKGQm9kW8rTXSn4EBEZghNlC YrtwLPGdZuTqkIRHYmwB/M5q7UXWerbT9BgGwKQBvNsqWzG/y81aomrX9qxMW0evnBnE D8ogTVK3IpsSJz9s1Sh2A2z2ccGSAa0cJPNHhfWUQbIBsG/tEaOtCjeUYzsxdLxj53Gg UVgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=MTh8S0IRjY9HEFdPE1LWpdH0q0Ff/0JT+CwFZGEPC60=; b=Ie9WCpSK7Z8Q2NNWsDhmKE4G8sCsjpWraL1BuHZEDCFnDEkGdGoxNcimK61W/Hn7Mv IN51tRcpXKYrdeOqHtGLwZlUcQgDfiMrSAEa4P8TOFppBC1LrF2ftjKdjYHaPcRPgIKD FwodiNpDWlsBGRo2xK6/R9CLoJ76mzwku/21PuSYE175k5zfK05KqffCqqVQ4WJAd+9Q AQXuUEafsv6nLQGcDLP0ALRhe2/2tkMtfQqYvdwu7CMwdwH5N24mKex9GHrB0lZyPhV0 aZ/HxH0y/2H14LqeZTN/THOzt8YuPdCNQc8HJ34Y9Q90V2JP+cxMuTh8I+WMCKns+D2G YLHA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531sB/2TWk/xY1JFI0YPHSJbq2rxWeBfdWQzc2YkQZPq+Y46zjWi Q1WRZTtoY/JZcbvnZEWMbsU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxAoMwIhSctyT0xIA35PpaF5k12Pko2tyWZxy5fZJn+tVUQJjotbYKdvqut1w+qOTsQ21W+QA== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c248:: with SMTP id b8mr455946wmj.115.1625510519626; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 11:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple ([46.128.198.100]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c16sm13977138wru.24.2021.07.05.11.41.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Jul 2021 11:41:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8735tw9l14.fsf@mbork.pl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::329; envelope-from=p.stephani2@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x329.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:131492 Archived-At: > Am 05.06.2021 um 21:19 schrieb Marcin Borkowski : >=20 >=20 > On 2021-06-05, at 14:58, Philipp wrote: >=20 >>> Am 05.06.2021 um 13:22 schrieb Marcin Borkowski : >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 2021-06-03, at 14:11, Philipp wrote: >>>=20 >>>>> Am 03.06.2021 um 06:03 schrieb Marcin Borkowski : >>>>>=20 >>>>> Well, the subject says it all. I could find an explicit, = comprehensive >>>>> list of mutable (or immutable) types in the Elisp manual. Is it = there >>>>> somewhere? >>>>=20 >>>> Mutability is a property of objects, not types. >>>> Some objects (numbers) are always immutable, others (markers, = buffers, ...) are always mutable. But objects of most "interesting" = types (strings, lists, vectors, symbols) can be either mutable or = immutable. >>>> Some time ago, I filed = https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D43557 to document which = objects are mutable, but unfortunately it's not yet fixed. >>>=20 >>> Thanks. However, I still don't understand. How can a list be >>> immutable? What about a string? I thought these are _always_ = mutable >>> (although in some cases you must not mutate them, because if you do, = bad >>> things could happen >>=20 >> "You must not mutate them" is the definition of immutable. >=20 > Well, in my book, "you can't mutate them" is. You always /can/ mutate > a string, but of you do it in certain circumstances, you're asking for > trouble. You can mutate all objects, because all of them are stored in mutable = memory. For a reference manual, "you're asking for trouble" isn't a terribly = useful statement.=