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From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
To: tomas@tuxteam.de, "Óscar Fuentes" <ofv@wanadoo.es>
Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: RE: Is Elisp really that slow?
Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 08:02:44 -0700 (PDT)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4583c850-121a-40cb-bbda-6c733d51a460@default> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20190517085526.GC9018@tuxteam.de>

> I've been in this software business for 30+ years, and with the arrival
> of "commodity computing", I've observed a strong anti-pattern: designs
> tend to cater to the buyer and not to the user.
> 
> I'll explain: If you decide which product to "buy", you haven't the
> time/resources to become proficient with that product: you decide on
> first impressions. But once you use that product for years, you'll
> "need" other features, which perhaps don't stick out at first sight.
> 
> There are two mechanisms pushing that anti-pattern forward:
> 
> 1. In bigger corporations those taking the decision which software
>   to "buy" (usually in the monetary sense) won't be those
>   paid (and thus more or less blackmailed) to use it. Management
>   goes "oh, shiny" and workers go "oh, no!".
> 
> 2. In general, when you personally "buy" a piece of software
>   (in the monetary, or in the general sense), you often have
>   no idea on what you need, so you go "oh shiny" again, and
>   sink considerable effort into fine-tuning your interface to
>   that software. Re-tuning is so expensive that you better not
>   think of it (as a long-time vi user, I mostly moved to Emacs
>   about ten years ago: it /was/ expensive.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> [1] "buy" in a very general sense: it might cost money or not,
>    but it'll cost learning, dedication and commitment.

And in a later msg:

> I'm convinced that conventional software has promoted patterns
> which tend to keep users in dependency (much more so in the Web
> "application" space[1], because there it's strategic for your
> business), and that those patterns infiltrate our way of seeing
> things -- therefore they end up in free software too, for no reason.

+1000.  Thank you for putting it so clearly.

user != chooser

Of course users may first choose.  But they also must then use.
Design for choosers ("sales" in some sense) is not, in itself,
design for users and use.

OTOH, a bazaar does have this advantage over a cathedral:
masses of user/developers attracted (in whatever way initially
- click-bait/"oh-shiny" or not) do sometimes improve a thing
that might have started out rudimentary or poorly designed.

Do Photoshop developers spend a huge amount of their energy
worrying about dumbing it down to commodity-sell it to every
Joe & Jane?  There may be some of that, but I doubt that it
is a strong/main consideration for the product design, in
particular for making the product as usable, useful, and
powerful as possible.



  reply	other threads:[~2019-05-17 15:02 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 298+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-05-14 23:54 Is Elisp really that slow? Ergus
2019-05-15 11:57 ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-15 13:06 ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-15 13:25   ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-15 13:30     ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-15 14:18       ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-15 14:45         ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-15 15:14           ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-15 15:39             ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-15 15:51               ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-15 16:05                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-15 16:07                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-15 16:05                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-15 16:12                   ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-15 16:15                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-15 20:23                       ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-15 20:30                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-15 15:42             ` Stefan Monnier
2019-05-15 17:29               ` Drew Adams
2019-05-15 19:38                 ` Ergus
2019-05-15 19:53                   ` Drew Adams
2019-05-15 20:09                     ` Ergus
2019-05-15 23:24                       ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-15 20:46             ` Ergus
2019-05-15 23:30               ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-15 23:12             ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-15 19:47           ` Ergus
2019-05-15 19:45         ` Ergus
2019-05-15 15:18     ` Stefan Monnier
2019-05-15 15:34       ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-15 15:51         ` Stefan Monnier
2019-05-15 17:30           ` John Yates
2019-05-15 19:29             ` Ergus
2019-05-15 20:15   ` Ergus
2019-05-15 20:21     ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-15 20:57       ` Ergus
2019-05-15 21:00         ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-15 21:17           ` Ergus
2019-05-17 11:09             ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-15 15:07 ` Uniformity (was: Is Elisp really that slow?) Stefan Monnier
2019-05-15 15:24   ` Uniformity Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-15 15:45     ` Uniformity Stefan Monnier
2019-05-15 19:58   ` Uniformity (was: Is Elisp really that slow?) Ergus
2019-05-18 23:51   ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-15 15:14 ` Is Elisp really that slow? Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-15 15:40   ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-15 16:14     ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-15 16:23       ` Tadeus Prastowo
2019-05-15 16:27         ` tomas
2019-05-15 17:00         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-15 20:09           ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-16 13:12             ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-16 13:40               ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-16 14:06                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-15 21:09       ` Ergus
2019-05-16 14:12         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-16 16:14           ` Ergus
2019-05-16 17:46             ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-16 20:23               ` Ergus
2019-05-16 20:50                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-16 22:46                   ` Ergus
2019-05-16 23:19                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-28 21:08                     ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-28 21:50                       ` Drew Adams
2019-05-17  1:28                   ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-05-17  2:26                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-17  4:05                       ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-05-17  6:08                         ` Ergus
2019-05-17  9:21                           ` tomas
2019-05-17 14:01                             ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-17 14:16                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-17 14:50                                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-17 18:19                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-17 19:23                                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-17 20:51                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-17 16:37                                 ` tomas
2019-05-17 16:50                                   ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-17 17:05                                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-17 18:11                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-17 18:16                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-17 18:14                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-30 12:09                               ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-25 16:48                                 ` Jean Louis
2019-05-29  4:58                           ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-17 13:46                         ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-29  4:26                         ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-17  5:52                       ` Ergus
2019-05-17  9:01                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-17 12:35                           ` Ergus
2019-05-17 13:13                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-17 13:22                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-17 13:39                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-17 15:07                                   ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-18 15:41                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-17 15:39                                   ` Ergus
2019-05-17 15:47                                     ` Noam Postavsky
2019-05-17 15:48                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-17 19:24                               ` Ergus
2019-05-17 20:12                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-19 13:38                                   ` Ergus
2019-05-19 13:42                                     ` Noam Postavsky
2019-06-06  3:24                                     ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-05  6:05                                   ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-05  4:44                                 ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-06 21:06                                   ` Xavier Maillard
2019-06-07 19:01                                     ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-31 15:50                               ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-31 17:57                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-07 18:46                                   ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-02 10:49                                 ` Stefan Huchler
2019-06-02 19:16                                   ` Marcin Borkowski
2019-06-02 22:49                                     ` Stefan Huchler
2019-06-07 18:55                                     ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-07 18:53                                   ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-17 14:21                             ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-17 15:02                             ` Drew Adams
2019-05-17 16:29                           ` Stefan Huchler
2019-05-17 17:19                             ` Ergus
2019-06-05  2:29                               ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-04 22:29                             ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-30  3:30                           ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-17 14:12                         ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-17  8:54                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-17  9:36                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-17 11:09                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-17 12:04                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-17 12:56                               ` Ergus
2019-05-17 13:31                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-17 15:03                                 ` Drew Adams
2019-06-04  1:27                                   ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-31 19:03                                 ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-01  8:17                                   ` Jean Louis
2019-06-07 18:49                                     ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-17 13:17                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-17 13:35                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-17 13:43                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-17 14:36                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-18 16:54                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-18 17:17                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-18 22:43                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-18 23:54                                             ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-19  0:24                                               ` 조성빈
2019-05-19  5:24                                                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-19 15:18                                                   ` Stefan Huchler
2019-05-19 18:40                                                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-20  6:47                                                       ` tomas
2019-05-20 14:57                                                         ` Drew Adams
2019-05-20 15:28                                                         ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-06-06  5:16                                                           ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-21 12:19                                                         ` Van L
2019-05-23 20:01                                                     ` Robert Thorpe
2019-05-23 23:05                                                       ` Stefan Huchler
2019-05-24 14:40                                                         ` Robert Thorpe
2019-05-25  0:07                                                           ` Stefan Huchler
2019-05-25 10:54                                                             ` Robert Thorpe
2019-06-06  6:02                                                       ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-06  0:16                                                     ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-06  0:08                                                   ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-06  0:06                                                 ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-19  2:40                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-31 21:04                                       ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-31 15:05                               ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-17 14:40                             ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-06-02  2:00                               ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-19 18:35                           ` Stefan Monnier
2019-05-19 19:23                             ` 조성빈
2019-05-20  6:53                             ` tomas
2019-06-06  5:03                             ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-11 13:06                             ` Ergus via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-11 13:37                               ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-06-12  1:08                                 ` Ergus via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-30 21:30                           ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-30 21:25                         ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
     [not found]                       ` <<20190517055202.ted62gt6hqcip7xt@Ergus>
     [not found]                         ` <<83mujlbgjh.fsf@gnu.org>
2019-05-17 15:03                           ` Drew Adams
2019-06-04  1:20                             ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-04  1:50                               ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-28 23:16                       ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-17  9:05                     ` tomas
2019-05-28 21:54                     ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-17  8:47                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-17 15:22                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-17 18:28                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-17 19:55                         ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-06-04  1:41                           ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-04  1:38                         ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-04  1:37                       ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-31  3:36                     ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-17  8:55                   ` tomas
2019-05-17 15:02                     ` Drew Adams [this message]
2019-05-31  4:52                       ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-27 14:30                   ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-29  5:02                     ` Xavier Maillard
2019-06-07 18:40                       ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-17  6:24                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-30 17:58                   ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-25  8:22                 ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-25  9:05                   ` 조성빈 via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-25  5:14               ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-25  4:42           ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-25  6:31             ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-07 18:34               ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-07 20:21                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-19  0:03         ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-19  8:16           ` Van L
2019-05-19 10:35             ` 조성빈
2019-05-19 12:48               ` Van L
2019-05-19 13:13                 ` Ergus
2019-06-06  2:54                   ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-19 13:00               ` Ergus
2019-05-19 14:57                 ` 조성빈
2019-06-06  3:08                   ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-19 13:05               ` Ergus
2019-05-21 12:00                 ` Van L
2019-06-06  3:20                   ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-06  0:52               ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-06  0:53               ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-19 14:32             ` Drew Adams
2019-05-21 12:09               ` Van L
2019-06-06  0:43             ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-06  2:12               ` Drew Adams
2019-05-23 20:16           ` Robert Thorpe
2019-06-07 18:23             ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-08 20:12               ` Robert Thorpe
2019-06-09 13:37                 ` Tomas Nordin
2019-06-09 13:50                   ` tomas
2019-06-10 22:55                     ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-12  9:16                       ` [offtopic] " Van L
2019-06-12  9:28                         ` tomas
2019-06-12 11:31                           ` Van L
2019-06-12 11:44                             ` tomas
2019-06-14  4:12                           ` Xavier Maillard
2019-06-14  7:07                           ` tomas
2019-06-12 11:16                         ` [offtopic] " Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-12 13:28                           ` Van L
2019-05-16 23:31   ` Emanuel Berg
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2019-05-16  1:32 Ergus
2019-05-22  7:13 ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-16  1:19 Ergus
2019-05-20 11:32 ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-02 21:40 Why is Elisp slow? Ergus
2019-05-02 23:39 ` 조성빈
2019-05-03  0:44   ` Ergus
2019-05-10 13:14     ` Van L
2019-05-10 13:22       ` Michael Heerdegen
2019-05-11  0:38         ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-11  7:32           ` Is Elisp really that slow? (was: Why is Elisp slow?) tomas
2019-05-11  7:42             ` 조성빈
2019-05-11  7:57               ` tomas
2019-05-11 23:09                 ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-12  7:54                   ` tomas
2019-05-12  9:46                     ` 조성빈
2019-05-12 14:21                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-12 14:45                         ` Is Elisp really that slow? Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-12 15:28                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-12 15:46                             ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-12 17:20                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-12 18:37                                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-12 18:53                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-13  1:44                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-12 21:18                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2019-05-12 22:22                                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-14 13:39                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2019-05-14 15:09                                         ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-05-13  0:57                                     ` Samuel Wales
2019-05-13 12:37                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2019-05-13 14:23                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-13 14:33                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-14  8:24                                           ` tomas
2019-05-14 13:21                                             ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-14 14:44                                               ` tomas
2019-05-15 11:25                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-15 12:05                                                   ` tomas
2019-05-15 23:02                                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-16  6:48                                                       ` tomas
2019-05-16  9:37                                                         ` Noam Postavsky
2019-05-16 11:02                                                           ` tomas
2019-05-23 14:23                                                             ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-24  1:33                                                               ` Van L
2019-05-16 13:31                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-23 14:28                                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-23 14:54                                                           ` Drew Adams
2019-05-23 14:55                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-06  5:18                                                             ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-16 14:45                                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2019-05-25  4:53                                                     ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-05-13  1:52                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-13  1:35                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-12 21:01                               ` Stefan Monnier
2019-05-13  1:27                             ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-13 14:38                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-13 15:00                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-13 15:25                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-14 11:54                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-14 16:21                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-14 17:05                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-14 18:30                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-15 11:27                                             ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-15 14:51                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-16 23:19                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-17  6:41                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-13 15:02                                 ` John Yates
2019-05-13 15:14                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-13 22:40                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-14  6:27                                 ` Paul W. Rankin
2019-05-14 13:10                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2019-05-13 15:42                               ` Van L
2019-05-17 15:17                           ` Ken Goldman
2019-06-04  1:36                             ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-08  0:26             ` Is Elisp really that slow? (was: Why is Elisp slow?) Samuel Wales
2019-06-08  8:52               ` tomas
2019-06-08 21:00                 ` Samuel Wales
2019-06-08 21:14                   ` tomas
2019-06-08 21:44                     ` Is Elisp really that slow? Óscar Fuentes
2019-06-08 23:29                       ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-11  4:10                       ` Xavier Maillard
     [not found] <<878sv7sp3r.fsf@telefonica.net>

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