Does anyone use menus?

Does anyone use menus?

[Dmitriy]

Hello,
what do you think of menus importance for vim? How often do the people 
use menus, or commands are enough to make one happy? Would anyone 
complain if there were no menus at all?

I am developing an IDE supporting a number of external plug-in editors 
including vim. I am about to use no menus for emacs plug-in, because of 
interference with IDE's own menu system. So I wonder if it would make 
any problems for emacs users.

I would appreciate any opinions/considerations on the subject
Thanks,
Dmitriy

Re: Does anyone use menus?

[roodwriter]

Dmitriy wrote:

> Hello,
> what do you think of menus importance for vim? How often do the people
> use menus, or commands are enough to make one happy? Would anyone
> complain if there were no menus at all?
> 
> I am developing an IDE supporting a number of external plug-in editors
> including vim. I am about to use no menus for emacs plug-in, because of
> interference with IDE's own menu system. So I wonder if it would make
> any problems for emacs users.
> 
> I would appreciate any opinions/considerations on the subject
> Thanks,
> Dmitriy

I can only speak for myself, really, but my guess is that the average
accomplished Emacs user won't miss them much. I'm guessing that one
thing that Vi/Vim and Emacs users have in common is a preference for
keyboard commands, finding them much more quick, easy and natural.

I generally have the menu bar hidden, revealing it once a month when I
use the mouse to change one bookmark. If it weren't there I'd be
forced to learn the bookmarking command, which would probably be good
for me.

The menu can be handy when you need to adjust the configuration files
using the configuration menus. It's probably also a good crutch for
new users who might be overwhelmed otherwise.

I don't have much of an opinion about a Vi/Vim menu system. I've been
taking some time to learn it (them) on grounds I feel I should be
familiar with both the great editors, but Vi/Vim don't work for the
type of work I do and the way my fingers work.

I'm not sure how you're trying to amalgamate the editors from the
description but are you aware that Emacs has a Vi emulator called
Viper mode?

--Rod


-- 
Author of "Linux for Non-Geeks--Clear-eyed Answers for Practical Consumers"
and "Boring Stories from Uncle Rod." Both are available at
http://www.rodwriterpublishing.com/index.html.

To reply take the extra "o" out of the name.

Re: Does anyone use menus?

[Alan Mackenzie]

Dmitriy <darqin@rambler.ru> wrote on Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:57:32 +0400:
> Hello,

> what do you think of menus importance for vim?

Hmm.  "Importance" in what sense?  I would think they're of comparatively
low importance if you're talking about the capabilities of vim, of high
importance if you're talking about giving users what they want.

> How often do the people use menus, or commands are enough to make one
> happy?

I think People either use menus continually, or not at all.  I doubt
there're many who use them occasionally.

> Would anyone complain if there were no menus at all?

Most assuredly!  But I wouldn't.

> I am developing an IDE supporting a number of external plug-in editors 
> including vim.

You're crazy.  ;-)

> I am about to use no menus for emacs plug-in, because of interference
> with IDE's own menu system. So I wonder if it would make any problems
> for emacs users.

Why bother?  The people who use Emacs menus will hardly use your IDE if
the Emacs menus are suppressed.  Emacs users like me who don't use menus
wouldn't be using the menus in your IDE either.  So you might as well
just leave out menus altogether, and save the effort for improved
functionality.

> Dmitriy

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
Email: aacm@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
(like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").

Re: Does anyone use menus?

[Floyd L. Davidson]

"roodwriter@core.com" <roodwriter@core.com> wrote:
>Dmitriy wrote:
>>
>> I am developing an IDE supporting a number of external plug-in editors
>> including vim. I am about to use no menus for emacs plug-in, because of
>> interference with IDE's own menu system. So I wonder if it would make
>> any problems for emacs users.

What value is an _external_ IDE for Emacs users... :-)

...

>The menu can be ...  a good crutch for
>new users who might be overwhelmed otherwise.

That hits the nail on the head, except for the "new users" part.
It's a crutch, period.  But of course the need filled by a
crutch and how much use it will get *changes* dramatically as a
user gains experience.  Crutches come in multiple styles...

Both the Emacs and XEmacs menus are set up by default for a very
new user.  There are menu options for commands that serious
users have long since had wired in thier fingers!  Which of
course makes the default menus a waste of space because they are
cluttered with what doesn't need to be there (unless of course
one is new to emacs, in which case they are probably great).

The solution, for a serious user, is to re-write the menus,
entirely.  (And perhaps the disbribution should consider having
a selection of two sets of menus, one for new users and one
for experienced users?)

On my (X)Emacs nothing that I can remember how to do is in a
menu (or bound to a function key either, for that matter).
Menus are *great*, for really useful commands or macros that,
while essential when needed, are so rarely used that I can't
remember how to use them.  A menu is just a quicker way to look
them up (compared to apropos, or reading other docs).

-- 
Floyd L. Davidson           <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@barrow.com

Re: Does anyone use menus?

[Micha Feigin]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Dmitriy wrote:

> Hello,
> what do you think of menus importance for vim? How often do the people use 
> menus, or commands are enough to make one happy? Would anyone complain if 
> there were no menus at all?
>
> I am developing an IDE supporting a number of external plug-in editors 
> including vim. I am about to use no menus for emacs plug-in, because of 
> interference with IDE's own menu system. So I wonder if it would make any 
> problems for emacs users.
>
> I would appreciate any opinions/considerations on the subject

with emacs and vim, people who use then alot tend to mostly use hotkeys 
and very little menus. Occational users will use the menu a lot more.

The main thing I use menus for is replace (I can never remember the 
shortcut for neither emacs or vim) and special mode menus (auctex for 
example)

> Thanks,
> Dmitriy
>
>
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Re: Does anyone use menus?

[Steinar Børmer]

Alan Mackenzie wrote:

| Dmitriy <darqin@rambler.ru> wrote on Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:57:32 +0400:
|
| > How often do the people use menus, or commands are enough to make
| > one happy?
| 
| I think People either use menus continually, or not at all.  I doubt
| there're many who use them occasionally.

I certainly do, for those commands that I use infrequently (once a month
or even less).  I usually don't remember the key bindings, and if the
name isn't very intuitive, I go to the menu instead of using apropos or
the likes.  The menus also give a clear overview of which commands
exist, thereby helping the learning process.

-- 
SB

When in doubt, use brute force.
                -- Ken Thompson

Re: Does anyone use menus?

[Johan Bockgård]

"roodwriter@core.com" <roodwriter@core.com> writes:

> I generally have the menu bar hidden, revealing it once a month when
> I use the mouse to change one bookmark. If it weren't there I'd be
> forced to learn the bookmarking command, which would probably be
> good for me.

When menu-bar-mode is off you can use C-<down-mouse-3> to display the
menu as a popup.

-- 
Johan Bockgård

Re: Does anyone use menus?

[Fabian Braennstroem]

Hi,

On 2005-06-21, Johan Bockgård <bojohan+news@dd.chalmers.se> wrote:
>  "roodwriter@core.com" <roodwriter@core.com> writes:
> 
> > I generally have the menu bar hidden, revealing it once a month when
> > I use the mouse to change one bookmark. If it weren't there I'd be
> > forced to learn the bookmarking command, which would probably be
> > good for me.
> 
>  When menu-bar-mode is off you can use C-<down-mouse-3> to display the
>  menu as a popup.

nice, did not know that.

Greetings, Fabian

Re: Does anyone use menus?

[roodwriter]

Johan Bockgård wrote:

> "roodwriter@core.com" <roodwriter@core.com> writes:
> 
>> I generally have the menu bar hidden, revealing it once a month when
>> I use the mouse to change one bookmark. If it weren't there I'd be
>> forced to learn the bookmarking command, which would probably be
>> good for me.
> 
> When menu-bar-mode is off you can use C-<down-mouse-3> to display the
> menu as a popup.
> 

Every time I think I have a pretty good handle on Emacs someone throws
something like this at me.

This is a really handy tip. Thanks.

--Rod


-- 
Author of "Linux for Non-Geeks--Clear-eyed Answers for Practical Consumers"
and "Boring Stories from Uncle Rod." Both are available at
http://www.rodwriterpublishing.com/index.html.

To reply take the extra "o" out of the name.

Re: Does anyone use menus?

[Kirk Job Sluder]

Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

> Dmitriy <darqin@rambler.ru> wrote on Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:57:32 +0400:
> I think People either use menus continually, or not at all.  I doubt
> there're many who use them occasionally.

I don't know about that.  My observation is that a lot of people use
keyboard shortcuts if that function is used multiple times a session,
(copy/paste, save-file), and switch to menus for those functions that
are used "once in a while" (search/replace, configuration).  I also must
admit to a strong preference for the Buffers menu as opposed to
remembering whether I want C-x b or C-x C-b and mistyping anyway.

YMMV.  
-- 
Kirk Job-Sluder
"The square-jawed homunculi of Tommy Hilfinger ads make every day an
existential holocaust."  --Scary Go Round

Re: Does anyone use menus?

[kgold]

Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
> Dmitriy <darqin@rambler.ru> wrote on Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:57:32 +0400:
> > How often do the people use menus, or commands are enough to make one
> > happy?
> 
> I think People either use menus continually, or not at all.  I doubt
> there're many who use them occasionally.

I'm the third option.  And this comment goes for all software not just
emacs:

I use key bindings for tasks I do often, and I dislike software that
forces me to use the mouse and menus.

I use menus for rarely used commands.  I also "surf" menus for
unfamiliar software to see what interesting functions might be
available.

I appreciate menus that include the equivalent key binding, as a
learning tool.

-- 
Ken Goldman   kgold@watson.ibm.com   914-784-7646