From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Daniel B." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up? Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 06:31:09 -0400 Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <3F7D4FED.E64EF56A@smart.net> References: <1c58a7c3.0310010003.78c0fa00@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1065177591 14577 80.91.224.253 (3 Oct 2003 10:39:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 10:39:51 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 03 12:39:50 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A5NLh-0006pH-00 for ; Fri, 03 Oct 2003 12:39:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1A5NJ7-0004dZ-Ra for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 03 Oct 2003 06:37:09 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.24) id 1A5NG0-0003aO-5E for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Oct 2003 06:33:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.24) id 1A5NFP-0002wd-2E for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Oct 2003 06:33:50 -0400 Original-Received: from [205.197.48.109] (helo=gemini.smart.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1A5NFN-0002uY-No for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Oct 2003 06:33:17 -0400 Original-Received: from smart.net (IDENT:501@dsb.smart.net [216.253.158.43]) by gemini.smart.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA22696; Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:32:19 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18+dsb+smp+ide i686) X-Accept-Language: en X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:12978 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:12978 David Kastrup wrote: > ... > I have to hold down control with the pinky, and reach b and f with > two fingers that are in quite different bends and directions. Three > fingers being bent out of their rest position and in need of pressing > coordinated make for RSI. So don't take a rest position and key-to-finger assignments that come from generic typing and use them when doing a lot of control-character commands on a computer. (For typing a sequence of control-character-based commands, shift your left hand left one key (for left pinky over control key). That reduces leftward/backward reaching with the pinky, trading it for easier rightward/forward reaching with the index finger, for control-R/-F/-V. For left-index-finger keys that are now harder to reach, use your right hand. Control-F becomes left pinky down on control key, left index finger mildly reaching right to F. Control-B becomes same left pinky situation with the right index finger on B.) (Yes, I can touch-type, and use the standard rest/home position and finger for typing most text.) > > Have you experienced the control key in its correct location (not > > where IBM-PC-style keyboards put control keys)? That will make a > > big difference. > > I will still need to use my pinky for it. True, but what's your point? (What about still needing to use your pinky means that it won't make a big difference?) Having to move your left hand left one key is a lot easer than moving your left pinky even further left and down _two_ rows. It's also probably easier than moving your right pinky way right and down. > > Typing Control-A is supposed to be as easy as putting your left little > > (leftmost) finger to the left of the A key and putting your left ring > > (second leftmost) finger on the A key. > > We are not talking Ctrl-A, ... Since when? We're talking about Emacs control-character sequences you might not have experienced correctly (with the control key available to the left of the A). Besides, control-A is also a good example because it shows how standard hand and finger positions from regular typing don't necessarily apply. > and besides, little and ring finger share > the same sheath for their sinews. Since you have to move them > independently, (CTRL down A down A up CTRL up), you have to let them > work against each other. I doubt that (working against either other). You're not pressing down with one finger and pulling up with the other. You're pressing one and just not pressing the other. (Besides, where are the "pressing" sinews relative to the "pulling" sinews?) My sequence is: 1. start pressing left pinky for Control-down 2. press left ring finger for A-down 3. release left right finger for A-up 4. releast left pinky for Control-up Actually, Control-A is more a single ballistic motion: Move both fingers down together, with the left pinky somewhat ahead of the ring finger, and then release. > > > Contrast that to vi, where the keyboard bindings for movement are > > > simply _the_ thing to use. > > > > What you mean by _the_ thing to use? > > No vi user with a modicum of experience will use cursor keys instead > of hjkl-Navigation. Note that the same has surely been said of Emacs. > > Modern version of vi accept arrow keys as well as traditional vi > > movement keys, don't they? > > Right. For the same of beginners, mostly. Experienced vi users will > use hjkl, whereas most experiences Emacs users will escape to using > cursor keys when available. I strongly doubt that last clause. If it actually is true, it's probably because they didn't try control-character sequences with the control key in the right place. > > And what contrast is there? Emacs takes main-keyboard keystrokes as > > well as arrow keys, and so does vi now. > > vi movement commands on the main keyboard are single-key, not > control-combinations. Yes, but remember that many control characters take only a single key- stroke to enter: When doing several control-character commands (movement _and_ other things) in a row, one tends to press and hold the control key, type _several_ other keys, and release the control key. True, that's a little more than a single, isolated H/J/K/L, but it's not a control-down and control-up for each control character. And comparing all the things one can do with a single control character vs. just four cursor movements leaves things out. (No, I don't want this to degenerate into an Emacs-vs.-vi argument.) > And they are all located on different fingers > of a single hand in rest position (shifted to the left by 1 key in > contrast to the 10-finger typist rest position, the only slight > awkwardness). Left one key for vi's basic 4-way movement commands, left one key for Emacs control-character commands--that still doesn't sound like much contrast. Daniel -- Daniel Barclay dsb@smart.net