unofficial mirror of help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: "Daniel B." <dsb@smart.net>
Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 06:31:09 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <3F7D4FED.E64EF56A@smart.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: x5pthgdfhu.fsf@lola.goethe.zz

David Kastrup wrote:
> ...
> I have to hold down control with the pinky, and reach b and f with
> two fingers that are in quite different bends and directions.  Three
> fingers being bent out of their rest position and in need of pressing
> coordinated make for RSI.

So don't take a rest position and key-to-finger assignments that come
from generic typing and use them when doing a lot of control-character
commands on a computer.

(For typing a sequence of control-character-based commands, shift your 
left hand left one key (for left pinky over control key).  That reduces
leftward/backward reaching with the pinky, trading it for easier 
rightward/forward reaching with the index finger, for control-R/-F/-V.  
For left-index-finger keys that are now harder to reach, use your right 
hand.

Control-F becomes left pinky down on control key, left index finger 
mildly reaching right to F.  Control-B becomes same left pinky situation 
with the right index finger on B.)

(Yes, I can touch-type, and use the standard rest/home position and finger 
for typing most text.)


> > Have you experienced the control key in its correct location (not
> > where IBM-PC-style keyboards put control keys)?  That will make a
> > big difference.
> 
> I will still need to use my pinky for it.

True, but what's your point?  (What about still needing to use your 
pinky means that it won't make a big difference?)

Having to move your left hand left one key is a lot easer than moving 
your left pinky even further left and down _two_ rows.  It's also
probably easier than moving your right pinky way right and down.


> > Typing Control-A is supposed to be as easy as putting your left little
> > (leftmost) finger to the left of the A key and putting your left ring
> > (second leftmost) finger on the A key.
> 
> We are not talking Ctrl-A, ...

Since when?

We're talking about Emacs control-character sequences you might not have
experienced correctly (with the control key available to the left of the 
A).

Besides, control-A is also a good example because it shows how standard 
hand and finger positions from regular typing don't necessarily apply.


> and besides, little and ring finger share
> the same sheath for their sinews.  Since you have to move them
> independently, (CTRL down A down A up CTRL up), you have to let them
> work against each other.

I doubt that (working against either other).  You're not pressing down 
with one finger and pulling up with the other.  You're pressing one and
just not pressing the other.  (Besides, where are the "pressing" sinews 
relative to the "pulling" sinews?)

My sequence is:
1. start pressing left pinky for Control-down
2. press left ring finger for A-down
3. release left right finger for A-up
4. releast left pinky for Control-up

Actually, Control-A is more a single ballistic motion:  Move both fingers
down together, with the left pinky somewhat ahead of the ring finger, and
then release.  


> > > Contrast that to vi, where the keyboard bindings for movement are
> > > simply _the_ thing to use.
> >
> > What you mean by _the_ thing to use?
> 
> No vi user with a modicum of experience will use cursor keys instead
> of hjkl-Navigation.

Note that the same has surely been said of Emacs.


> > Modern version of vi accept arrow keys as well as traditional vi
> > movement keys, don't they?
> 
> Right.  For the same of beginners, mostly.  Experienced vi users will
> use hjkl, whereas most experiences Emacs users will escape to using
> cursor keys when available.

I strongly doubt that last clause.  If it actually is true, it's probably
because they didn't try control-character sequences with the control key 
in the right place.


> > And what contrast is there?  Emacs takes main-keyboard keystrokes as
> > well as arrow keys, and so does vi now.
> 
> vi movement commands on the main keyboard are single-key, not
> control-combinations.  

Yes, but remember that many control characters take only a single key-
stroke to enter:  When doing several control-character commands (movement 
_and_ other things) in a row, one tends to press and hold the control key, 
type _several_ other keys, and release the control key.  True, that's a 
little more than a single, isolated H/J/K/L, but it's not a control-down 
and control-up for each control character.  And comparing all the things
one can do with a single control character vs. just four cursor movements 
leaves things out.  (No, I don't want this to degenerate into an 
Emacs-vs.-vi argument.)

> And they are all located on different fingers
> of a single hand in rest position (shifted to the left by 1 key in
> contrast to the 10-finger typist rest position, the only slight
> awkwardness).

Left one key for vi's basic 4-way movement commands, left one key for
Emacs control-character commands--that still doesn't sound like much
contrast.


Daniel
-- 
Daniel Barclay
dsb@smart.net

  parent reply	other threads:[~2003-10-03 10:31 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 49+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2003-10-01  8:03 C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up? Barman Brakjoller
2003-10-01  8:43 ` Noufal Ibrahim
2003-10-01 10:16 ` David Kastrup
2003-10-01 17:02   ` Daniel B.
     [not found]   ` <mailman.949.1065027827.21628.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2003-10-01 17:39     ` David Kastrup
2003-10-02 16:16       ` Hans-Christoph Wirth
2003-10-07 18:33         ` David Steuber
2003-10-03 10:31       ` Daniel B. [this message]
2003-10-08 23:52       ` Jim Janney
2003-10-09 18:50         ` Barry Margolin
2003-10-16 21:07       ` Kai Grossjohann
2003-10-07 18:29     ` David Steuber
2003-10-09 17:11       ` Daniel B.
     [not found]       ` <mailman.1425.1065719518.21628.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2003-10-09 19:42         ` David Steuber
2003-11-03  2:34       ` David Combs
2003-10-01 12:00 ` Arjan Bos
2003-10-01 15:48   ` Barry Margolin
2003-10-02 14:21     ` Arjan Bos
2003-10-06 17:30   ` Gareth Rees
2003-10-01 12:34 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-10-01 12:48   ` Jay Belanger
2003-10-07 18:40     ` David Steuber
2003-10-07 20:02       ` Stefan Monnier
2003-10-07 21:11         ` David Kastrup
2003-10-08  8:48         ` Oliver Scholz
2003-10-08 10:21           ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]           ` <mailman.1313.1065608391.21628.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2003-10-08 10:27             ` David Kastrup
2003-10-08 15:47               ` Barry Margolin
2003-10-09 18:16                 ` C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up? - OT now Daniel B.
     [not found]                 ` <mailman.1429.1065723394.21628.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2003-10-09 19:03                   ` Björn Lindström
2003-10-09 20:39                 ` C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up? lawrence mitchell
2003-10-09 18:15           ` Daniel B.
2003-10-01 12:36 ` Jim Ottaway
2003-10-01 15:07 ` Kevin Rodgers
2003-10-01 16:43 ` Daniel B.
2003-10-02 13:59   ` Arthur Davis
     [not found] ` <mailman.985.1065065051.21628.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2003-10-02  8:40   ` Matthias Meulien
2003-10-03 10:31     ` Daniel B.
     [not found]     ` <mailman.1056.1065177296.21628.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2003-10-16 21:03       ` Kai Grossjohann
2003-10-16 21:13         ` lawrence mitchell
2003-10-06 14:21   ` Sven Utcke
2003-10-06 15:35     ` Barry Margolin
2003-10-07 16:29       ` Hans-Christoph Wirth
2003-10-07 21:11         ` David Kastrup
2003-10-09 15:17           ` Per Abrahamsen
2003-10-09 17:08     ` Daniel B.
     [not found] <E1A4kP0-00064x-AV@monty-python.gnu.org>
2003-10-02 22:45 ` Joe Corneli
     [not found] ` <mailman.1038.1065134760.21628.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2003-10-06 14:23   ` Sven Utcke
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-10-16 22:32 Joe Corneli

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

  List information: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=3F7D4FED.E64EF56A@smart.net \
    --to=dsb@smart.net \
    --cc=help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).