New Emacs with GTK?

New Emacs with GTK?

[Peter Wu]

I notice some guys posting with Emacs 21.3.50. I guess it should be a CVS
version of Emacs. Is this new version built with GTK? If yes, GTK 1 or
GTK2?

-- 
Peter Wu
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Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[David Kastrup]

Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:

> I notice some guys posting with Emacs 21.3.50. I guess it should be
> a CVS version of Emacs. Is this new version built with GTK?

Wrong question.  You can build it with a multitude of widget sets,
Athena, Lucid, Motif and now also GTK.

> If yes, GTK 1 or GTK2?

 ldd /usr/local/emacs-21/bin/emacs
        libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0 (0x41b45000)
        libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 (0x41d9b000)
        libatk-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libatk-1.0.so.0 (0x4206b000)
        libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 (0x42086000)
        libm.so.6 => /lib/tls/libm.so.6 (0x41935000)
        libpangoxft-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpangoxft-1.0.so.0 (0x42006000)
        libpangox-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpangox-1.0.so.0 (0x420c0000)
        libpango-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpango-1.0.so.0 (0x41f85000)
        libgobject-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0 (0x41f4e000)
        libgmodule-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgmodule-2.0.so.0 (0x420e9000)
        libdl.so.2 => /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x41b29000)
        libglib-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0 (0x41e0b000)

>From the News file:

** You can build Emacs with Gtk+ widgets by specifying `--with-x-toolkit=gtk'
when you run configure.  This requires Gtk+ 2.0 or newer.

> -- 
> Peter Wu
> Powered by Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]

I would doubt that GTK ports to Windows XP would work, though.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Peter Wu]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> I notice some guys posting with Emacs 21.3.50. I guess it should be
>> a CVS version of Emacs. Is this new version built with GTK?
>
> Wrong question.  You can build it with a multitude of widget sets,
> Athena, Lucid, Motif and now also GTK.
>
>> If yes, GTK 1 or GTK2?
> [...]

Mine:

ldd /usr/local/bin/emacs
/usr/local/bin/emacs:
	libXaw3d.so.7 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXaw3d.so.7 (0x281a3000)
	libXmu.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXmu.so.6 (0x281f7000)
	libXt.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXt.so.6 (0x2820c000)
	libSM.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6 (0x28257000)
	libICE.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6 (0x28260000)
	libXext.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6 (0x28276000)
	libtiff.so.4 => /usr/local/lib/libtiff.so.4 (0x28284000)
	libjpeg.so.9 => /usr/local/lib/libjpeg.so.9 (0x282c8000)
	libpng.so.5 => /usr/local/lib/libpng.so.5 (0x282e6000)
	libz.so.2 => /usr/lib/libz.so.2 (0x2830a000)
	libm.so.2 => /usr/lib/libm.so.2 (0x28318000)
	libungif.so.5 => /usr/local/lib/libungif.so.5 (0x28334000)
	libXpm.so.4 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXpm.so.4 (0x2833c000)
	libX11.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6 (0x2834a000)
	libutil.so.3 => /usr/lib/libutil.so.3 (0x28407000)
	libncurses.so.5 => /usr/lib/libncurses.so.5 (0x28410000)
	libc.so.4 => /usr/lib/libc.so.4 (0x28452000)
	libXThrStub.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXThrStub.so.6 (0x284ed000)

> ** You can build Emacs with Gtk+ widgets by specifying `--with-x-toolkit=gtk'
> when you run configure.  This requires Gtk+ 2.0 or newer.

Thanks, I'll give it a try. 

> I would doubt that GTK ports to Windows XP would work, though.

Well, I run Emacs on top of FreeBSD at home. :)

-- 
Peter Wu
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Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Matthew Kennedy]

Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:

> I notice some guys posting with Emacs 21.3.50. I guess it should be a CVS
> version of Emacs. Is this new version built with GTK? If yes, GTK 1 or
> GTK2?
> 

GTK+2 -- and it looks glorious :))

Matt

-- 
Matthew Kennedy

Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Peter Wu]

Matthew Kennedy <mbkennedy@austin.rr.com> writes:

> Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> I notice some guys posting with Emacs 21.3.50. I guess it should be a CVS
>> version of Emacs. Is this new version built with GTK? If yes, GTK 1 or
>> GTK2?
>> 
>
> GTK+2 -- and it looks glorious :))

Can you share me some screenshots? :)

-- 
Peter Wu
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Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan]

> > GTK+2 -- and it looks glorious :))
> 
> Can you share me some screenshots? :)

 http://www.hackGNU.org/emacs-gtk.png

-- 
   Ramakrishnan

Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Peter Wu]

Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan <rkrishnan@ti.com> writes:

>> > GTK+2 -- and it looks glorious :))
>> 
>> Can you share me some screenshots? :)
>
>  http://www.hackGNU.org/emacs-gtk.png

Good looking!! :)

I want my scrollbar to be of the same style as yours. How to?

-- 
Peter Wu
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Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan]

Peter Wu wrote:
> 
> Good looking!! :)
> 
> I want my scrollbar to be of the same style as yours. How to?

I didn't do anything special.

Here is what I did while compiling emacs from CVS with GTK+2.0 support. 

$ ./configure --with-x --with-{png,jpeg...} --with-x-toolkit=gtk
--with-pkg-config-prog=<path to pkg-config>

Under debian, you have to install the package `libgtk2.0-dev' inorder to
have the relevant header files and libraries to compile GTK+2.0
programs. That's it.

best regards
-- 
   Ramakrishnan

Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Peter Wu]

Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan <rkrishnan@ti.com> writes:

> Peter Wu wrote:
>> 
>> Good looking!! :)
>> 
>> I want my scrollbar to be of the same style as yours. How to?
>
> I didn't do anything special.
>
> Here is what I did while compiling emacs from CVS with GTK+2.0 support. 
>
> $ ./configure --with-x --with-{png,jpeg...} --with-x-toolkit=gtk
> --with-pkg-config-prog=<path to pkg-config>
>
> Under debian, you have to install the package `libgtk2.0-dev' inorder to
> have the relevant header files and libraries to compile GTK+2.0
> programs. That's it.

I have already installed Gnome2.2. Do I still need to install that
package?

Also, I am not sure what that package contains as I don't run Debian here.

-- 
Peter Wu
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Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Marco Parrone]

Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:

> Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan <rkrishnan@ti.com> writes:
> 
> > $ ./configure --with-x --with-{png,jpeg...} --with-x-toolkit=gtk
> > --with-pkg-config-prog=<path to pkg-config>

I did:

./configure --with-gtk
make bootstrap
make
make install

> I have already installed Gnome2.2. Do I still need to install that
> package?

If you installed GNOME from sources, no, you do not need it.

Look at the "./configure --with-gtk" output, if it does not complain
about missing GTK files, then you have all what is needed IMHO.

Near the end it should output a report, something like

...
  What window system should Emacs use?                    x11
  What toolkit should Emacs use?                          GTK
...

> Also, I am not sure what that package contains as I don't run Debian
> here.

It contains header files

$(prefix)/include/gtk-2.0/*
$(prefix)/lib/gtk-2.0/include/gdkconfig.h

pkgconfig configuration files

$(prefix)/lib/pkgconfig/*.pc

extra libraries

$(prefix)/lib/libgtk*.la
$(prefix)/lib/libgdk*.so
$(prefix)/lib/gtk-2.0/2.0.0/immodules/im-*.la
$(prefix)/usr/lib/gtk-2.0/2.0.0/loaders/libpixbufloader-*.la

other things

$(prefix)/share/aclocal/gtk-2.0.m4
$(prefix)/bin/gdk-pixbuf-csource
$(prefix)/share/man/man1/gdk-pixbuf-csource.1.gz

-- 
Marco Parrone - marc0@autistici.org
www.autistici.org/marc0
2143 9E77 D5E6 115A 48AD  A170 D0EE F736 (4E88 99C2)

Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Yongtao Yang]

Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan <rkrishnan@ti.com> writes:

> > > GTK+2 -- and it looks glorious :))
> > 
> > Can you share me some screenshots? :)
> 
>  http://www.hackGNU.org/emacs-gtk.png

Thanks for the screenshots, it  looks awesome. :)

But what is the 'Quack' menu? Something new in CVS emacs ?

-- 
Yongtao Yang

email: yangyongtao@yahoo.com

Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan]

Yongtao Yang wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the screenshots, it  looks awesome. :)
> 
> But what is the 'Quack' menu? Something new in CVS emacs ?

No. It is a mode for Scheme programming. Please see 

 http://www.neilvandyke.org/quack/

I (mis)maintain quack-el package in Debian GNU/Linux.

-- 
   Ramakrishnan

Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Stefan Monnier]

>>>>> "Ramakrishnan" == Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan <rkrishnan@ti.com> writes:
> No. It is a mode for Scheme programming. Please see 
>  http://www.neilvandyke.org/quack/
> I (mis)maintain quack-el package in Debian GNU/Linux.

Since it seems to be layered on top of scheme.el (which is
great), maybe you could try to feed us some of the changes
to include them directly in scheme.el ?


        Stefan

Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Peter Wu]

Matthew Kennedy <mbkennedy@austin.rr.com> writes:

> Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> I notice some guys posting with Emacs 21.3.50. I guess it should be a CVS
>> version of Emacs. Is this new version built with GTK? If yes, GTK 1 or
>> GTK2?
>> 
>
> GTK+2 -- and it looks glorious :))

So, can Emacs 21.2 be built with GTK support like the screenshot you posted?

-- 
Peter Wu
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This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[David Kastrup]

Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:

> Matthew Kennedy <mbkennedy@austin.rr.com> writes:
> 
> > Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> I notice some guys posting with Emacs 21.3.50. I guess it should
> >> be a CVS version of Emacs. Is this new version built with GTK? If
> >> yes, GTK 1 or GTK2?
> >> 
> >
> > GTK+2 -- and it looks glorious :))
> 
> So, can Emacs 21.2 be built with GTK support like the screenshot you
> posted?

No.  But the CVS Emacs is pretty solid for day-to-day work.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Peter Wu]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> Matthew Kennedy <mbkennedy@austin.rr.com> writes:
>> 
>> > Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:
>> >
>> >> I notice some guys posting with Emacs 21.3.50. I guess it should
>> >> be a CVS version of Emacs. Is this new version built with GTK? If
>> >> yes, GTK 1 or GTK2?
>> >> 
>> >
>> > GTK+2 -- and it looks glorious :))
>> 
>> So, can Emacs 21.2 be built with GTK support like the screenshot you
>> posted?
>
> No.  But the CVS Emacs is pretty solid for day-to-day work.

OK. I run FreeBSD. Is there any BSD patch for CVS Emacs? Can anyone share
the experience installing CVS Emacs on FreeBSD? Thanks.

-- 
Peter Wu
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Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Kai Großjohann]

Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:

> OK. I run FreeBSD. Is there any BSD patch for CVS Emacs? Can anyone
> share the experience installing CVS Emacs on FreeBSD? Thanks.

I don't run FreeBSD myself, but I'd be surprised if a patch was
needed.  You just fetch the sources via CVS and follow the
INSTALL-CVS instructions.

Until recently, the head maintainer of Emacs was using FreeBSD, if I'm
not mistaken.  (Now Richard himself does it who runs Debian GNU/Linux
I believe.)
-- 
A preposition is not a good thing to end a sentence with.

Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Peter Wu]

kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> OK. I run FreeBSD. Is there any BSD patch for CVS Emacs? Can anyone
>> share the experience installing CVS Emacs on FreeBSD? Thanks.
>
> I don't run FreeBSD myself, but I'd be surprised if a patch was
> needed.  You just fetch the sources via CVS and follow the
> INSTALL-CVS instructions.

# ./configure --with-x --with-x-toolkit=gtk
[configured OK]

# make --with-x --with-x-toolkit=gtk bootstrap

[...]

gcc -c -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include -L/usr/local/lib -Demacs -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DUSE_GTK  -I. -I/tmp/emacs-cvs/emacs/src   -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include -L/usr/local/lib    -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include/atk-1.0 -I/usr/local/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/local/lib/glib-2.0/include -I/usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0 -I/usr/X11R6/lib/gtk-2.0/include -I/usr/X11R6/include/pango-1.0 -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include/freetype2 -I/usr/local/include
   -g -O2 gtkutil.c
gtkutil.c: In function `xg_create_scroll_bar':
gtkutil.c:2480: syntax error before `struct'
gtkutil.c:2482: `last_pos' undeclared (first use in this function)
gtkutil.c:2482: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
gtkutil.c:2482: for each function it appears in.)
*** Error code 1
 
Stop in /tmp/emacs-cvs/emacs/src.
*** Error code 1
 
Stop in /tmp/emacs-cvs/emacs.

What was I missing? I am running Gnome2.2 here. Thanks.

-- 
Peter Wu
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This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Marco Parrone]

Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:

> gcc -c -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include -L/usr/local/lib
[...]
>  
> Stop in /tmp/emacs-cvs/emacs/src.
> *** Error code 1
>  
> Stop in /tmp/emacs-cvs/emacs.
> 
> What was I missing? I am running Gnome2.2 here. Thanks.

Try to update to the latest CVS, then post a bug-report to
"gnu.emacs.bug".

Bye

-- 
Marco Parrone - marc0@autistici.org
www.autistici.org/marc0
2143 9E77 D5E6 115A 48AD  A170 D0EE F736 (4E88 99C2)

Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Stefan Monnier]

>>>>> "Marco" == Marco Parrone <marc0@autistici.org> writes:
> Try to update to the latest CVS, then post a bug-report to
> "gnu.emacs.bug".

No, questions/problems related to unreleased Emacs versions should be
sent to emacs-pretest-bug AT gnu.org and not to gnu.emacs.bug.


        Stefan

Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Peter Wu]

Marco Parrone <marc0@autistici.org> writes:

> Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> gcc -c -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include -L/usr/local/lib
> [...]
>>  
>> Stop in /tmp/emacs-cvs/emacs/src.
>> *** Error code 1
>>  
>> Stop in /tmp/emacs-cvs/emacs.
>> 
>> What was I missing? I am running Gnome2.2 here. Thanks.
>
> Try to update to the latest CVS, then post a bug-report to
> "gnu.emacs.bug".

I have the latest CVS and the problem persists.

-- 
Peter Wu
Powered by FreeBSD 4.8-RC

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Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Marco Parrone]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:

> Marco Parrone <marc0@autistici.org> writes:
> 
> > Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> gcc -c -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include -L/usr/local/lib
> > [...]
> >>  
> >> Stop in /tmp/emacs-cvs/emacs/src.
> >> *** Error code 1
> >>  
> >> Stop in /tmp/emacs-cvs/emacs.
> >> 
> >> What was I missing? I am running Gnome2.2 here. Thanks.
> >
> > Try to update to the latest CVS, then post a bug-report to
> > "gnu.emacs.bug".
> 
> I have the latest CVS and the problem persists.

You need GCC version 3.0.

I tried to recompile "gtkutil.o"

export PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/usr/lib/pkgconfig:/usr/local/lib/pkgconfig
./configure --with-gtk
make bootstrap
cd src
make gtkutil.o

[error messages]

and it fails, using gcc version 2.95.x

but

make CC=gcc-3.0 gtkutil.o

Goes well.

Bye

- -- 
Marco Parrone - marc0@autistici.org
www.autistici.org/marc0
2143 9E77 D5E6 115A 48AD  A170 D0EE F736 (4E88 99C2)
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Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Peter Wu]

Marco Parrone <marc0@autistici.org> writes:

> Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> Marco Parrone <marc0@autistici.org> writes:
>> 
>> > Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:
>> >
>> >> gcc -c -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include -L/usr/local/lib
>> > [...]
>> >>  
>> >> Stop in /tmp/emacs-cvs/emacs/src.
>> >> *** Error code 1
>> >>  
>> >> Stop in /tmp/emacs-cvs/emacs.
>> >> 
>> >> What was I missing? I am running Gnome2.2 here. Thanks.
>> >
>> > Try to update to the latest CVS, then post a bug-report to
>> > "gnu.emacs.bug".
>> 
>> I have the latest CVS and the problem persists.
>
> You need GCC version 3.0.

No, I don't. :)

I ran CVS just now and managed to compile with my 2.95.

-- 
Peter Wu
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Re: New Emacs with GTK?

[Peter Wu]

Marco Parrone <marc0@autistici.org> writes:

> Peter Wu <peterwu@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> gcc -c -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include -L/usr/local/lib
> [...]
>>  
>> Stop in /tmp/emacs-cvs/emacs/src.
>> *** Error code 1
>>  
>> Stop in /tmp/emacs-cvs/emacs.
>> 
>> What was I missing? I am running Gnome2.2 here. Thanks.
>
> Try to update to the latest CVS, then post a bug-report to
> "gnu.emacs.bug".

I tried sending bug-report to gnu.emacs.bug group but got the message
below.

The original message was received at Sat, 15 Mar 2003 13:30:45 GMT
from root@mail.fu-berlin.de [160.45.11.165]

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
bug-gnu-emacs@prep.ai.mit.edu
    (reason: 550 Administrative prohibition)
    (expanded from: <gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org>)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to mail.gnu.org.:
>>> DATA
<<< 550 Administrative prohibition
554 5.0.0 Service unavailable

   ----- Original message follows -----
[Original Message snipped]

-- 
Peter Wu
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This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

New Emacs with GTK!

[Hans Larsen]

Hi,

ein grosses Dankeschön (big thank you) to all the people making gtk2 emacs 
possible. To be honest I was somewhat sceptical and therefore hesitating,
however since I use gtk2-emacs I consequently removed all other text editors
on my machine. Again thanks a lot!

Cheers
-Hans

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[kgold]

I'm wondering - I use NTEmacs, presumably using the MFC GUI classes,
emacs on Linux using Lesstif, and emacs on AIX using Motif.

As a user (not an emacs developer), why should I carer about gtk2?

> ein grosses Dankesch=F6n (big thank you) to all the people making
> gtk2 emacs possible. To be honest I was somewhat sceptical and
> therefore hesitating, however since I use gtk2-emacs I consequently
> removed all other text editors on my machine. Again thanks a lot!

-- 
-- 
Ken Goldman   kgold@watson.ibm.com   914-784-7646

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Peter Lee]

kgold@watson.ibm.com (kgold) writes:

> I'm wondering - I use NTEmacs, presumably using the MFC GUI classes,
> emacs on Linux using Lesstif, and emacs on AIX using Motif.

Emacs doesn't use MFC on NT.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Alan Shutko]

kgold@watson.ibm.com (kgold) writes:

> As a user (not an emacs developer), why should I carer about gtk2?

Right now, the only reason to care is that it'll look a bit more like
the other Gtk2 apps on your system.  It just replaces the menubar,
scrollbar and toolbars.  (I think it makes some of those detachable,
if you like, but I'm not sure.)

It doesn't change anything else, at least not yet.  

-- 
Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> - I am the rocks.
Looking for a developer in St. Louis? http://web.springies.com/~ats/
"I sleep alone............by choice." - Lois Lane

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Miles Bader]

kgold@watson.ibm.com (kgold) writes:
> I'm wondering - I use NTEmacs, presumably using the MFC GUI classes,
> emacs on Linux using Lesstif, and emacs on AIX using Motif.
> 
> As a user (not an emacs developer), why should I carer about gtk2?

Depends on what's important to you...

I like the GTK emacs simply because it (1) matches the look of other apps
that use GTK (which is, at least in my case, many), and (2) looks much,
much, much, slicker than the clunky-ass *tif (this of course, depends to
some degree on your choosing a slick-looking GTK theme, though you get
anti-aliased menus and a nicer-looking toolbar regardless :-).

Some other less personal reasons might include a better long term viability
for GTK; I expect that once the GTK version hits prime-time, it will get a
lot more maintenance attention than the other versions.

-Miles
-- 
Next to fried food, the South has suffered most from oratory.
  			-- Walter Hines Page

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Michael Powe]

>>>>> "Miles" == Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> writes:

    Miles> kgold@watson.ibm.com (kgold) writes:

    >> I'm wondering - I use NTEmacs, presumably using the MFC GUI
    >> classes, emacs on Linux using Lesstif, and emacs on AIX using
    >> Motif.

    >> As a user (not an emacs developer), why should I carer about
    >> gtk2?

    Miles> Depends on what's important to you...

yep.  what's important to me is editing, not my "desktop theme."

    Miles> I like the GTK emacs simply because it (1) matches the look
    Miles> of other apps that use GTK (which is, at least in my case,
    Miles> many), and (2) looks much, much, much, slicker than the
    Miles> clunky-ass *tif (this of course, depends to some degree on
    Miles> your choosing a slick-looking GTK theme, though you get
    Miles> anti-aliased menus and a nicer-looking toolbar regardless
    Miles> :-).

    Miles> Some other less personal reasons might include a better
    Miles> long term viability for GTK; I expect that once the GTK
    Miles> version hits prime-time, it will get a lot more maintenance
    Miles> attention than the other versions.

actually, i doubt it.  i'm sure that there are many who, like me, do
the bulk of their editing in -- gasp -- the console.  gtk will be
worthless to us.

mp

-- 
  Michael Powe                                 Waterbury, CT USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"It stands to reason that self-righteous, inflexible, single-minded,
authoritarian true believers are politically organized. Open-minded,
flexible, complex, ambiguous, anti-authoritarian people would just as
soon be left to mind their own fucking business." - R.U. Sirius

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Niels Freimann]

> actually, i doubt it.  i'm sure that there are many who, like me, do
> the bulk of their editing in -- gasp -- the console.  gtk will be
> worthless to us

emacs was introduced to me in the early 90th by a person who 
belongs to the developers. What he installed on my machine was 
X11 emacs.  I never saw anybody editing in the console seriousely. 
Therefore I don't believe that too many of people do editing in the 
console.  This people may use zile or something.

I fully subscribe to Miles saying that "I expect that once the GTK
version hits prime-time, it will get a lot more maintenance
attention than the other versions "

Furthermore I expect that, when the GTKversion hits prime-time, 
the developers will remove all the anachronistic xlib and motif 
code for the reason of a much slimmer code which will be 
much more open to the community for maintenance.

-Niels

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Daniel R. Anderson]

<snip>

> I never saw anybody editing in the console seriousely. 
> Therefore I don't believe that too many of people do editing in the 
> console.  This people may use zile or something.

</snip>

I routinely ssh into a number of different boxes from Windows.  The
console is the ONLY way to use emacs. I suspect there are a number of
others out there like me who are forced to use the console version now
and then.  And I think most of us would hate having to learn vi just to
edit in the console.

-- 
Daniel R. Anderson
Chief Lab Rat and Helper Monkey
Great Lakes Industries, Inc.
80 Pineview Ave.
Buffalo, NY 14218
(716) 691-5900 x218

"Never let your schooling interfere with your education"
	-- Mark Twain

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Jason Earl]

"Daniel R. Anderson" <dan@mathjunkies.com> writes:

> <snip>
>
>> I never saw anybody editing in the console seriousely. 
>> Therefore I don't believe that too many of people do editing in the 
>> console.  This people may use zile or something.
>
> </snip>
>
> I routinely ssh into a number of different boxes from Windows.  The
> console is the ONLY way to use emacs. I suspect there are a number
> of others out there like me who are forced to use the console
> version now and then.  And I think most of us would hate having to
> learn vi just to edit in the console.

Consoles are good.  In fact, I was finally able to kick my XEmacs
habit thanks to the fact that Emacs can colorize text on the console.
However, I use Gnome on Linux, and I like the idea of Emacs using GTK
for its widgets.  That's going to look sharp.

Jason

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Edward O'Connor]

Niels Freimann wrote:

> Furthermore I expect that, when the GTKversion hits prime-time, the
> developers will remove all the anachronistic xlib and motif code for
> the reason of a much slimmer code which will be much more open to the
> community for maintenance.

I highly doubt they'd up and remove the Lucid and Motif bindings just
like that.


Ted

-- 
Edward O'Connor
oconnor@soe.ucsd.edu

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Niels Freimann]

> I highly doubt they'd up and remove the Lucid and Motif bindings just
> like that

unfortunately you may be right. However then maintaining emacs will 
become a much difficult task restricted to a small number of experts - not
to say impossible. emacs is the only program known to me supporting
ncurses, motif, gtk, ..., at the same time. A museum of former pride - as 
we Germans say. I don't think this making any sense. We aren't in the 80ths 
or 90ths anymore. Basically emacs is the best text editor  known to me. 
Each time I invoke it, I fell into a deep respect for Richard, and the rest of
the gang. Emacs must become the text editor for the 3rd Millenia, and leave 
the past behind. Gtk isn't "the future", but the presence. Its a good choice 
for a world where most of us running gnome or kde, and ncurses, motif, etc. 
already has become the past. I know that this are harsh words - however they 
are true.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

   Its a good choice for a world where most of us running gnome or
   kde, and ncurses, motif, etc.  already has become the past. I know
   that this are harsh words - however they are true.

Sorry, those word are not true at all.  This mail is being typed over
an SSH session in Emacs, how do you expect me to write this if I can't
use Emacs in the console? What about people that use brail devices?

I for example prefer _NOT_ using GNOME or KDE since the computers I
use aren't the fastest around.  And even on the fast computers that I
use, I still prefer not using GNOME or KDE, since I find them quite
honestly useless (this is my own opinion, others actually dop like
GNOME and KDE, and find them usefull).

What you suggest is just absurd, people should have the choice of
running their favourite widget without having someone telling them
"this is the future, so we will stop supporting you".  As long as the
code doesn't rot into oblivion, I really don't see a problem.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[A. L. Meyers]

Don't be so sure, Niels.

The text console is alive and thriving, e. g. with the frame buffer
device, which may lead to a renaissance of the text console.

Long live the text console!

Lucien
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Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Niels Freimann]

Dear Lucien,

I do not subscribe to any claim about a renaissance of the text 
console. Nevertheless if you and others persist on an ncurses
emacs then why not splitting emacs into gtk and ncurses 
applications, sharing display unrelated code via libraries, and 
removing all the motif, .., code forever ?

This would reduce code drastically, making the sources easier 
to understand, finding more support under the younsters
who are familiar with concepts like MVC.

However one thing must be clear: Any future development
must place gtk into the very center. emacs must become fully 
compatible with modern desktop environments. It must provide
all the dialogs known to the people by other GUI programs, and 
any relicts of the text mode past must disappear. Emacs must 
look and feel like any other gnome, kde, or window, application. 

Normally I do not argue phlilosophically, but today I break
this rule. I think that the destination of emacs always was 
towards the future. Richard written it with the future in his 
mind when others,  mesmerized by past resource limitations,
written text editors for terminals connected by very slow modems. 
When I started using emacs, most people still refused using 
it because the "eight megabytes and constantly swapping monster
is too much futuristic". Making plans for emacs future in the year 
2003 with ncurses in mind, would fail the destination of emacs.To 
be polemical: our competition isn't vms or something, but 
M$ windows. 

Nobody should feel offended by my harsh words. I am now
almost 50 years old, and love emacs very much. I am not
interested to experience a future death of emacs as an 
backward oriented dinosaur. If emacs will die one day, then it 
should die proud as an project which always was one step 
farther in the future than its competition. I hope you'll understand 
that.

On Sunday 23 March 2003 15:17, A.L.Meyers wrote:
> Don't be so sure, Niels
>
> The text console is alive and thriving, e. g. with the frame buffer
> device, which may lead to a renaissance of the text console
>
> Long live the text console!
>
> Lucien

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Hubert Chan]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2590 bytes --]

>>>>> "Niels" == Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

[...]

Niels> However one thing must be clear: Any future development must
Niels> place gtk into the very center.

Absolutely not.  If anything, future development should focus on making
it really easy to switch toolkits.  (Disclaimer: I am not an emacs
developer.  I am also not trying to influence emacs developers; I
believe that they know what they are doing.)  What happens if you lock
yourself into GTK, and GTK becomes obsolete?  Or GTK3 comes out and is
API incompatible with GTK2 (much like what happened between GTK1 and
GTK2).

The best way to make sure that you'll be able to switch to the future
toolkit is to maintain support for multiple currently existing toolkits.
If you ditch support for Xt, motif, ncurses, etc. it becomes very easy
to dig yourself into a GTK2 hole that will be very hard to get out of if
you ever need to switch to anything else.  By keeping the other
toolkits, you know where all the pitfalls will be when you ever want to
use something else.

I agree that GTK support is important, but good GTK support is not
mutually exclusive with supporting other toolkits, even ncurses.

One of the reasons that I chose gnus as my mail reader is because I
could always ssh into my computer to check my mail.  My main emacs use
is in graphical mode, but I'm really thankful that I have the option to
use text mode if I ever need to.  And don't forget all those blind
users who use emacsspeak, and have no real need for GTK support.

[...]

Niels> Emacs must look and feel like any other gnome, kde, or window,
Niels> application.

Yes.  And how is it going to look and feel like a KDE or Windows (or
Mac OSX, or even CDE) program if it just uses GTK?

In fact, Emacs seems to be doing pretty well in this area already.  In
Windows, if I click on File | Open, I get a Windows file selection
dialog.  (At least I did the last time I used NTEmacs, about three
years ago.)  In Linux, under GNOME, if I click on File | Open, I get
the GTK file selection dialog.  It looks to me like supporting ncurses
isn't having any negative effect on GTK support.

[...]

Niels> To be polemical: our competition isn't vms or something, but M$
Niels> windows.

Our competition is not Windows.  In fact, emacs runs just fine under
Windows.

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Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Jason Rumney]

Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

> This would reduce code drastically, making the sources easier 
> to understand, finding more support under the younsters
> who are familiar with concepts like MVC.

Strange you should bring up MVC here. The main purpose of MVC is to
separate the display from logic, thus making it possible to have
simultaneous support for X and console.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Michael Powe]

>>>>> "Niels" == Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

    Niels> Dear Lucien, I do not subscribe to any claim about a
    Niels> renaissance of the text console. Nevertheless if you and
    Niels> others persist on an ncurses emacs then why not splitting
    Niels> emacs into gtk and ncurses applications, sharing display
    Niels> unrelated code via libraries, and removing all the motif,
    Niels> .., code forever ?

and again, what is the point of forking the code, and reducing the
number of systems on which it can be used?  so you can have a pretty
desktop?  from a maintenance standpoint, having two versions of the
same software, and having to update two versions simultaneously, makes
absolutely no sense whatever.  it would be a nightmare.

    Niels> However one thing must be clear: Any future development
    Niels> must place gtk into the very center. emacs must become
    Niels> fully compatible with modern desktop environments. It must
    Niels> provide all the dialogs known to the people by other GUI
    Niels> programs, and any relicts of the text mode past must
    Niels> disappear. Emacs must look and feel like any other gnome,
    Niels> kde, or window, application.

well, it may be clear to you, but it sure isn't clear to me.  i use
emacs as an editor.  i don't know what you're doing with it.  admiring
it on your desktop, apparently.  and i completely reject the notion
that anyone "must" make their products "look like windows."  if i
wanted to use windows, i would USE windows.  one of the main strengths
of using unix/linux is that you can have a CHOICE of desktop and work
environments.  i fervently hope that your notion that we should all be
required to use gnome, kde or windows utterly fails to find an
audience.

i sincerely hope that future development continues to focus on
improving its editing capabilities and makes its potential as a
desktop bauble secondary.

and i may as well add that a good deal of the improvement of emacs
over the years has come from the userbase, which has contributed
hundreds, probably thousands of elisp packages that extend the
functionality of the base editor.  such as this newsreader, gnus. 

mp

-- 
  Michael Powe                                 Waterbury, CT USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"It stands to reason that self-righteous, inflexible, single-minded,
authoritarian true believers are politically organized. Open-minded,
flexible, complex, ambiguous, anti-authoritarian people would just as
soon be left to mind their own fucking business." - R.U. Sirius

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Miles Bader]

Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:
> >>>>> "Niels" == Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:
>     Niels> Dear Lucien, I do not subscribe to any claim about a
>     Niels> renaissance of the text console. Nevertheless if you and
>     Niels> others persist on an ncurses emacs then why not splitting
>     Niels> emacs into gtk and ncurses applications, sharing display
>     Niels> unrelated code via libraries, and removing all the motif, ..,
>     Niels> code forever ?
> 
> and again, what is the point of forking the code, and reducing the
> number of systems on which it can be used?  so you can have a pretty
> desktop?  from a maintenance standpoint, having two versions of the
> same software, and having to update two versions simultaneously, makes
> absolutely no sense whatever.  it would be a nightmare.

Anyway, it's simply not going to happen.  RMS is pretty conservative and
careful as emacs maintainer, and won't remove support for something unless
it's completely obvious that no one needs it (it was suggested recently to
remove the non-toolkit X support, but I think that plan was scratched
because some people said they still used it).

Whatever some people think about the tty interface, it's still widely used,
though often as a secondary interface (e.g. when telneting in from a remote
system).  Morever, I there's a strong cultural attachment to tty support
among the sort of people who hack on / use emacs, at least among my
generation.

It is true that supporting all the display mechanisms it does adds a bunch
of hair to the redisplay code; however I think it would be better to adopt
a better internal architecture to support them all in a more regular
fashion (as I believe xemacs has done), rather than only supporting one.

-Miles
-- 
Ich bin ein Virus. Mach' mit und kopiere mich in Deine .signature.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Michael Powe]

>>>>> "Miles" == Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> writes:

    Miles> It is true that supporting all the display mechanisms it
    Miles> does adds a bunch of hair to the redisplay code; however I
    Miles> think it would be better to adopt a better internal
    Miles> architecture to support them all in a more regular fashion
    Miles> (as I believe xemacs has done), rather than only supporting
    Miles> one.

hmm, yeah there's just a _bit_ of difference there.  ;-)

(Linux 2.4.5) [/home/mpowe]   6:59pm                                
{57} --> ll /usr/X11R6/bin/xemacs-21.1.14
  1 root     bin       4330372 Apr 11  2001 /usr/X11R6/bin/xemacs-21.1.14

(Linux 2.4.5) [/home/mpowe]   7:03pm                                     
 {66} --> ll `which emacs`
  2 root     root      6430569 Feb 26 15:16 /usr/bin/emacs

mp


-- 
  Michael Powe                                 Waterbury, CT USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"It stands to reason that self-righteous, inflexible, single-minded,
authoritarian true believers are politically organized. Open-minded,
flexible, complex, ambiguous, anti-authoritarian people would just as
soon be left to mind their own fucking business." - R.U. Sirius

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Jesper Harder]

Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:

> hmm, yeah there's just a _bit_ of difference there.  ;-)
>
>   1 root     bin       4330372 Apr 11  2001 /usr/X11R6/bin/xemacs-21.1.14
>   2 root     root      6430569 Feb 26 15:16 /usr/bin/emacs

Well, for me Emacs is smallest:

-rwxr-xr-x    1 root     root         4.9M Feb 22  2002 /usr/bin/xemacs-21.4.6
-rwxr-xr-t    2 root     root         4.1M Apr  9  2002 /usr/bin/emacs-21.2

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Kai Großjohann]

Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

> However one thing must be clear: Any future development
> must place gtk into the very center. emacs must become fully 
> compatible with modern desktop environments. It must provide
> all the dialogs known to the people by other GUI programs, and 
> any relicts of the text mode past must disappear. Emacs must 
> look and feel like any other gnome, kde, or window, application. 

Please don't.  Emacs feels different, and that is part of its power.
Many applications use Ctrl-S to save, and Ctrl-F to search, but Emacs
uses C-s to search, and C-f is occupied by moving right one character.

I do not object to adding stuff to Emacs, and I do not object to
removing support for things that are no longer needed, but your
suggestion of radically changing Emacs is not good.  Emacs has been
Emacs since 1985 or so, and that's good.  I want Emacs to be Emacs in
2015, too!

In particular, text mode is a *very* useful thing.  Not everybody
needs it, perhaps, but those who do need it, need it badly.
-- 
A preposition is not a good thing to end a sentence with.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Sven Utcke]

Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

> Nevertheless if you and others persist on an ncurses emacs then why
> not splitting emacs into gtk and ncurses applications,

Sounds good.  Maybe call the ncurses one Emacs, and the gtk one
XEmacs?

Ups, no, we already did that split in the early 90s...

> However one thing must be clear: Any future development
> must place gtk into the very center. 

It _must_ do so?  As in, if it doesn't, the world will end, the
universe collapse, and you might switch back to Windows?

> emacs must become fully compatible with modern desktop
> environments. It must provide all the dialogs known to the people by
> other GUI programs, and any relicts of the text mode past must
> disappear. Emacs must look and feel like any other gnome, kde, or
> window, application.

Right.  Just what I waited for, Emacs feeling like any other Windows
application.  Does this include the paperclip and insiting on
capitalizing some words, like it or not?

Believe it or not, I did _not_ switch to Unix so as to avoid paying
for software; I switched to Unix because I liked the Unix-Way better
than the MS-Way.  I see no need for my applications to look like
Windows to make me feel at home, just the opposite in fact.

> Richard written it with the future in his mind when others,
> mesmerized by past resource limitations, written text editors for
> terminals connected by very slow modems.

Well, Emacs was actually quite useable for this until 21.x, and given
that until very recently a slow modem was all which connected me with
the outside world, I was grateful for that.

> To be polemical: our competition isn't vms or something, but M$
> windows.

Is it?  I know that I wont use Windows until forced to do so by my
employer, but I might change over go gvim or somesuch if Emacs became
to much of a Windows-lookalike (I'll probably simply stay with an
older Emacs version though).  

On the other hand, even _if_ Windows would be the competition: if
emulating the competition a very forward-looking business-model?

Sven
-- 
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          |___/ http://kogs-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~utcke/home.html

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[François Fleuret]

Hi,

Niels Freimann wrote on 23 Mar 2003 17:09:38 MET:

> However one thing must be clear: Any future development must place
> gtk into the very center. emacs must become fully compatible with
> modern desktop environments. It must provide all the dialogs known
> to the people by other GUI programs, and any relicts of the text
> mode past must disappear. Emacs must look and feel like any other
> gnome, kde, or window, application.

Why ?

FF

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[David Combs]

In article <87vfyai2ur.fsf@wassern.consult-meyers.com>,
A. L. Meyers  <spamnjet@yahoo.de> wrote:
>Don't be so sure, Niels.
>
>The text console is alive and thriving, e. g. with the frame buffer
>device, which may lead to a renaissance of the text console.


What *is* this frame buffer device?

*How* would you use it?  (Note: I use solarais on sparc)

And, what do you get with it, that is useful
for running emacs *not* under a gui?

(eg, like on a vt100)

Thanks

David

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Kai Großjohann]

dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) writes:

> In article <87vfyai2ur.fsf@wassern.consult-meyers.com>,
> A. L. Meyers  <spamnjet@yahoo.de> wrote:
>>Don't be so sure, Niels.
>>
>>The text console is alive and thriving, e. g. with the frame buffer
>>device, which may lead to a renaissance of the text console.
>
> What *is* this frame buffer device?

It's a part of the Linux kernel and allows you to do more with the
text console under Linux than a VT-100 can do.  (I gather you can
show images with the framebuffer device and such.)
-- 
file-error; Data: (Opening input file no such file or directory ~/.signature)

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Michael Powe]

>>>>> "Kai" == Kai Großjohann <kai.grossjohann@gmx.net> writes:

    Kai> dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) writes:
    >> In article <87vfyai2ur.fsf@wassern.consult-meyers.com>,
    >> A. L. Meyers  <spamnjet@yahoo.de> wrote:
    >>> Don't be so sure, Niels.

    >>> The text console is alive and thriving, e. g. with the frame
    >>> buffer device, which may lead to a renaissance of the text
    >>> console.
    >>  What *is* this frame buffer device?

    Kai> It's a part of the Linux kernel and allows you to do more
    Kai> with the text console under Linux than a VT-100 can do.  (I
    Kai> gather you can show images with the framebuffer device and
    Kai> such.)

framebuffer will allow you to do "ansi" style graphics (the kind you
used to do on BBS all that long time ago).  svgalib on steriods.  it
also allows you to use proportional fonts.  but, my experience has
been that they look horrible in an ordinary monitor.  (i have a
gateway ev700 17", with a 32Mb radeon video card, e.g.) i prefer plain
old "terminal" output.  i can't even love the syntax highlighting in
the console from the latest emacs.

the problem with framebuffer is that you can't hide the fact that a
pixel is not square, so "squares" on the screen are portrayed as
rectangles and most fonts are distorted. 

imo, if you want graphics, use X.

mp

-- 
  Michael Powe                                 Waterbury, CT USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"It stands to reason that self-righteous, inflexible, single-minded,
authoritarian true believers are politically organized. Open-minded,
flexible, complex, ambiguous, anti-authoritarian people would just as
soon be left to mind their own fucking business." - R.U. Sirius

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Michael Powe]

>>>>> "Kai" == Kai Großjohann <kai.grossjohann@gmx.net> writes:

    Kai> dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) writes:
    >> In article <87vfyai2ur.fsf@wassern.consult-meyers.com>,
    >> A. L. Meyers  <spamnjet@yahoo.de> wrote:
    >>> Don't be so sure, Niels.

    >>> The text console is alive and thriving, e. g. with the frame
    >>> buffer device, which may lead to a renaissance of the text
    >>> console.
    >>  What *is* this frame buffer device?

    Kai> It's a part of the Linux kernel and allows you to do more
    Kai> with the text console under Linux than a VT-100 can do.  (I
    Kai> gather you can show images with the framebuffer device and
    Kai> such.)

framebuffer will allow you to do "ansi" style graphics (the kind you
used to do on BBS all that long time ago).  svgalib on steriods.  it
also allows you to use proportional fonts.  but, my experience has
been that they look horrible in an ordinary monitor.  (i have a
gateway ev700 17", with a 32Mb radeon video card, e.g.) i prefer plain
old "terminal" output.  i can't even love the syntax highlighting in
the console from the latest emacs.

the problem with framebuffer is that you can't hide the fact that a
pixel is not square, so "squares" on the screen are portrayed as
rectangles and most fonts are distorted. 

imo, if you want graphics, use X.

mp

-- 
  Michael Powe                                 Waterbury, CT USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"It stands to reason that self-righteous, inflexible, single-minded,
authoritarian true believers are politically organized. Open-minded,
flexible, complex, ambiguous, anti-authoritarian people would just as
soon be left to mind their own fucking business." - R.U. Sirius

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[David Combs]

In article <87vfyai2ur.fsf@wassern.consult-meyers.com>,
A. L. Meyers  <spamnjet@yahoo.de> wrote:
>Don't be so sure, Niels.
>
>
>Long live the text console!

Indeed!

Not that I've needed to yet, but if I've got
the computer (solaris/sparc) down in non-gui,
single-user mode, I can still run emacs -- thank god.

Of course, until Sun appeared, *all* of us who were
using emacs were using it on eg vt-100s -- at eg
1200 baud.  (then 2400, then 9600).

(Running on DEC 20's, under "twenex" os)

(That was when emacs was still written in teco).

I cannot imagine rms *ever* removing non-gui ability
from emacs.  Sure hope not!


David

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Niels Freimann]

Hi David,

I am running emacs -nw as an perfect vi replacement.
Therefore there is only one text editor, emacs, on my
machine. However I don't believe that in the year 2003 
when most users running linux on fast ia32 machines a tty 
emacs is the future. Its rather a *nostalgia* for older users
like we are. Furthermore my argument was removing 
anything else than gtk2 as X11 target, and creating two 
separate branches for tty and gtk2, sharing common code
via libraries.  An tty and an gtk2 emacs thats enough. 
Otherwise the code base will become too large.

-Niels

On Friday 18 April 2003 06:13, David Combs wrote:
> In article <87vfyai2ur.fsf@wassern.consult-meyers.com>,
>
> A. L. Meyers  <spamnjet@yahoo.de> wrote:
> >Don't be so sure, Niels
> >
> >
> >Long live the text console!
>
> Indeed!
>
> Not that I've needed to yet, but if I've got
> the computer (solaris/sparc) down in non-gui,
> single-user mode, I can still run emacs -- thank god
>
> Of course, until Sun appeared, *all* of us who were
> using emacs were using it on eg vt-100s -- at eg
> 1200 baud.  (then 2400, then 9600)
>
> (Running on DEC 20's, under "twenex" os)
>
> (That was when emacs was still written in teco)
>
> I cannot imagine rms *ever* removing non-gui ability
> from emacs.  Sure hope not!
>
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help-gnu-emacs mailing list
> Help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Marco Parrone]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

> Hi David,
> 
> I am running emacs -nw as an perfect vi replacement.
> Therefore there is only one text editor, emacs, on my
> machine. However I don't believe that in the year 2003 
> when most users running linux on fast ia32 machines a tty 
> emacs is the future. 

I (and likely many others) believe the opposite.

> Its rather a *nostalgia* for older users like we are.

I'm not an old user, but I like using the tty, now you can see that
this is not a nostaligia.

X11 is big, slow, buggy, it sucks resources, it promotes for wasting
time and resources (see themes, backgrounds, and likewise) and for
giving more attention to the form instead than to the contents.

Using the tty is more effective, less distracting, and gives you a
more uniform interface and a more eyes-friendly too.

> Furthermore my argument was removing anything else than gtk2 as X11
> target,

Sometimes X11 is needed, and if you don't need the toolbar and the
scrollbar then using GTK(2) is only a waste of hardware resources and
so user time.

Bye.

- -- 
Marco Parrone - marc0@autistici.org
www.autistici.org/marc0
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Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Kai Großjohann]

Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

> I am running emacs -nw as an perfect vi replacement.
> Therefore there is only one text editor, emacs, on my
> machine. However I don't believe that in the year 2003 
> when most users running linux on fast ia32 machines a tty 
> emacs is the future. Its rather a *nostalgia* for older users
> like we are. Furthermore my argument was removing 
> anything else than gtk2 as X11 target, and creating two 
> separate branches for tty and gtk2, sharing common code
> via libraries.  An tty and an gtk2 emacs thats enough. 
> Otherwise the code base will become too large.

What's the point in having two programs that share 99% of their source
code?

It's like suggesting to split Linux into two versions, one for the
masses with IDE drives, and another for a few die-hards with SCSI
drives.

IMHO, it doesn't make any sense at all.
-- 
file-error; Data: (Opening input file no such file or directory ~/.signature)

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Niels Freimann]

To separate a program into different layers is a paradigm of modern software 
development. You must know that. "Bleib sachlich" otherwise further 
argumentations are making no sense. I am not interested in wasting my time 
for polemical controversities with backward oriented people.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Alan Shutko]

Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

> To separate a program into different layers is a paradigm of modern software 
> development. You must know that.

Have you looked at the redisplay code?  There's not much code there
which is specific to a given windowing system.  Separating Emacs into
a libemacs, TTYEmacs, OSXEmacs, GTKEmacs, W32Emacs would result in a
really big libemacs, and really, really small window-specific
versions.  That would provide a negligible size advantage downloading
the source, an even smaller advantage in the binary, and basically no
advantage in memory use.  (Probably even a decrease in performance on
some platforms like x86 Gnu/Linux, since a shared libemacs would have
lost a register to -fPIC.)

The cost for these minimal benefits would be more work for the
development team, since APIs would have to be made more rigid since
someone changing an API couldn't just update all the calls in the
various frontends.  Or it would mean users would lose out, because
the various frontends would no longer be truly compatible.

Objectively, what is the case to be made to do this?

-- 
Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> - I am the rocks.
Looking for a developer in St. Louis? http://web.springies.com/~ats/
Don't underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of mag tapes.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Stefan Monnier]

>>>>> "Niels" == Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:
> To separate a program into different layers is a paradigm of modern software 
> development.

I.e. you're just saying that Emacs's code should be modularized, right?
In that case, I'd be interested to know which parts of the GTK and tty
code you'd like to see better modularized.
It is obvious that there is a lot of code-duplication (i.e. nightmare for
maintenance) between X11/w32/carbon.  OTOH I didn't know that there was
such a problem with the tty code, but I admittedly don't know that code
very well at all.


        Stefan

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Kai Großjohann]

Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

> To separate a program into different layers is a paradigm of modern
> software development. You must know that. "Bleib sachlich" otherwise
> further argumentations are making no sense.

You suggested to "create two separate branches for tty and gtk".
That sounded a lot like the Emacs-XEmacs split to me.
It would be stupid.

I apologize for the tone of my message.
-- 
file-error; Data: (Opening input file no such file or directory ~/.signature)

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Marco Parrone]

Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

> the gang. Emacs must become the text editor for the 3rd Millenia, and leave 
> the past behind. Gtk isn't "the future", but the presence. Its a good choice 
> for a world where most of us running gnome or kde, and ncurses, motif, etc. 
> already has become the past. I know that this are harsh words - however they 
> are true.

If GTK is the best for you, this does not mean that it is the best for
everyone.

Somebody loves using a GUI with millions of colors, windows here and
there, thousands of different fonts, with differents sizes, lots of
menus, icons, having to move the hands from the keyboard to the mouse
and vice-versa for all the time.

Other peoples likes having the possibility to not move the hands from
the keyboard for all the time, having a coherend, clean, readable and
eye-friendly 80x25 fixed chars matrix, with a little number of colors,
one single-size font, not superfluous decorations.

If I want to see something nice, I see a movie, or I play at a
videogame, or other millions of things.

If I want to do useful things in a fast and comfortable way, I use
Emacs in a console.

So, if you are not of the my opinion, you can see that there does not
exists the perfect solution for all, as we are more that 6,000,000,000
of persons in the world, and there is a big variety of needs or tastes.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Per Abrahamsen]

Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

> Gtk isn't "the future", but the presence. 

True. And on day, it will be the past.

Emacs is for the long run.  During its lifetime, the dominating
toolkits have been at least termcap, curses, terminfo, SunView, raw
X10, raw X11, XView, Motif, Qt, GTK 1 and GTK2; and in some circles
w16, PM, w32, MFC, NeXTStep and Cocoa.

Emacs need to be able to adopt to an ever changing environment.  GUI
fashion come and go, only Emacs is for ever.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Michael Powe]

>>>>> "Per" == Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:

    Per> Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:
    >> Gtk isn't "the future", but the presence.

    Per> True. And on day, it will be the past.

    Per> Emacs is for the long run.  During its lifetime, the
    Per> dominating toolkits have been at least termcap, curses,
    Per> terminfo, SunView, raw X10, raw X11, XView, Motif, Qt, GTK 1
    Per> and GTK2; and in some circles w16, PM, w32, MFC, NeXTStep and
    Per> Cocoa.

    Per> Emacs need to be able to adopt to an ever changing
    Per> environment.  GUI fashion come and go, only Emacs is for
    Per> ever.

oh, yeah.  God's Own Editor(tm).

http://www.dina.dk/~abraham/religion/

;-)

mp

-- 
  Michael Powe                                 Waterbury, CT USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"It stands to reason that self-righteous, inflexible, single-minded,
authoritarian true believers are politically organized. Open-minded,
flexible, complex, ambiguous, anti-authoritarian people would just as
soon be left to mind their own fucking business." - R.U. Sirius

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[John Russell]

Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:

> >>>>> "Per" == Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:
> 
>     Per> Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:
>     >> Gtk isn't "the future", but the presence.
> 
>     Per> True. And on day, it will be the past.
> 
>     Per> Emacs is for the long run.  During its lifetime, the
>     Per> dominating toolkits have been at least termcap, curses,
>     Per> terminfo, SunView, raw X10, raw X11, XView, Motif, Qt, GTK 1
>     Per> and GTK2; and in some circles w16, PM, w32, MFC, NeXTStep and
>     Per> Cocoa.
> 
>     Per> Emacs need to be able to adopt to an ever changing
>     Per> environment.  GUI fashion come and go, only Emacs is for
>     Per> ever.
> 
> oh, yeah.  God's Own Editor(tm).

Wow, can't argue with that.  But just assume for a second that I would
like to wallow in the hedonistic tendencies of flashy GUI loveliness
de jur, where can I get gtk2-emacs?  i have seen other posts that
said, its in CVS.  Uhhh, pardon my ignorance.  Whose cvs tree?  Emacs
cvs?  Is there a tarball somewhere, or even a website?  Anything?
Google doesn't even know about this project.  Can someone fill me in,
I'm really curious.  Thanks.

John


> 
> http://www.dina.dk/~abraham/religion/
> 
> ;-)
> 
> mp
> 
> -- 
>   Michael Powe                                 Waterbury, CT USA
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> "It stands to reason that self-righteous, inflexible, single-minded,
> authoritarian true believers are politically organized. Open-minded,
> flexible, complex, ambiguous, anti-authoritarian people would just as
> soon be left to mind their own fucking business." - R.U. Sirius

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[David Kastrup]

John Russell <jorussel@cisco.com> writes:

> Wow, can't argue with that.  But just assume for a second that I would
> like to wallow in the hedonistic tendencies of flashy GUI loveliness
> de jur, where can I get gtk2-emacs?  i have seen other posts that
> said, its in CVS.  Uhhh, pardon my ignorance.  Whose cvs tree?  Emacs
> cvs?  Is there a tarball somewhere, or even a website?  Anything?

<URL:http://savannah.gnu.org/cvs/?group=emacs>

> Google doesn't even know about this project.

Pardon?  The query

  Emacs CVS

turns up the above link as its first hit.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[John Russell]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> John Russell <jorussel@cisco.com> writes:
> 
> > Wow, can't argue with that.  But just assume for a second that I would
> > like to wallow in the hedonistic tendencies of flashy GUI loveliness
> > de jur, where can I get gtk2-emacs?  i have seen other posts that
> > said, its in CVS.  Uhhh, pardon my ignorance.  Whose cvs tree?  Emacs
> > cvs?  Is there a tarball somewhere, or even a website?  Anything?
> 
> <URL:http://savannah.gnu.org/cvs/?group=emacs>
> 
> > Google doesn't even know about this project.
> 
> Pardon?  The query
> 
>   Emacs CVS
> 
> turns up the above link as its first hit.

"this project" was not meant to refer to emacs, but gtk/gtk2-emacs.
I tried things like

gtk emacs
gtk2 emacs
gtk-emacs
gtk2-emacs
emacs gtk

and came up with little but archane news posts about png not loading
properly.  Thanks for the pointer.

John

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[David Kastrup]

John Russell <jorussel@cisco.com> writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > John Russell <jorussel@cisco.com> writes:
> > 
> > > Wow, can't argue with that.  But just assume for a second that I would
> > > like to wallow in the hedonistic tendencies of flashy GUI loveliness
> > > de jur, where can I get gtk2-emacs?  i have seen other posts that
> > > said, its in CVS.  Uhhh, pardon my ignorance.  Whose cvs tree?  Emacs
> > > cvs?  Is there a tarball somewhere, or even a website?  Anything?
> > 
> > <URL:http://savannah.gnu.org/cvs/?group=emacs>
> > 
> > > Google doesn't even know about this project.
> > 
> > Pardon?  The query
> > 
> >   Emacs CVS
> > 
> > turns up the above link as its first hit.
> 
> "this project" was not meant to refer to emacs, but gtk/gtk2-emacs.
> I tried things like
> 
> gtk emacs
> gtk2 emacs
> gtk-emacs
> gtk2-emacs
> emacs gtk
> 
> and came up with little but archane news posts about png not loading
> properly.  Thanks for the pointer.

There is no "gtk2 Emacs" project.  gtk2 is just one toolkit among
others in the normal Emacs code base.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[John Russell]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> John Russell <jorussel@cisco.com> writes:
> 
> > David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
> > 
> > > John Russell <jorussel@cisco.com> writes:
> > > 
> > > > Wow, can't argue with that.  But just assume for a second that I would
> > > > like to wallow in the hedonistic tendencies of flashy GUI loveliness
> > > > de jur, where can I get gtk2-emacs?  i have seen other posts that
> > > > said, its in CVS.  Uhhh, pardon my ignorance.  Whose cvs tree?  Emacs
> > > > cvs?  Is there a tarball somewhere, or even a website?  Anything?
> > > 
> > > <URL:http://savannah.gnu.org/cvs/?group=emacs>
> > > 
> > > > Google doesn't even know about this project.
> > > 
> > > Pardon?  The query
> > > 
> > >   Emacs CVS
> > > 
> > > turns up the above link as its first hit.
> > 
> > "this project" was not meant to refer to emacs, but gtk/gtk2-emacs.
> > I tried things like
> > 
> > gtk emacs
> > gtk2 emacs
> > gtk-emacs
> > gtk2-emacs
> > emacs gtk
> > 
> > and came up with little but archane news posts about png not loading
> > properly.  Thanks for the pointer.
> 
> There is no "gtk2 Emacs" project.  gtk2 is just one toolkit among
> others in the normal Emacs code base.

Ok, I managed to download emacs from cvs and compiled with gtk as my
toolkit.  Very nice.  The menus are anti-aliased nicely, but one
thing that I was REALLY hoping for, still wasn't there.  Are there
plans for freedesktop standard drag and drop support, even if its
just with the gtk version?  

John

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Kai Großjohann]

John Russell <jorussel@cisco.com> writes:

> Wow, can't argue with that.  But just assume for a second that I would
> like to wallow in the hedonistic tendencies of flashy GUI loveliness
> de jur, where can I get gtk2-emacs?  i have seen other posts that
> said, its in CVS.  Uhhh, pardon my ignorance.  Whose cvs tree?  Emacs
> cvs?  Is there a tarball somewhere, or even a website?  Anything?
> Google doesn't even know about this project.  Can someone fill me in,
> I'm really curious.  Thanks.

http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/emacs

It has a CVS links somewhere which has instructions, I believe.

Kai, blissfully watching, with a slightly hurting head, the beautiful
Gtk scrollbar. 
-- 
A preposition is not a good thing to end a sentence with.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[David Kastrup]

kai.grossjohann@gmx.net (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/emacs
> 
> It has a CVS links somewhere which has instructions, I believe.
> 
> Kai, blissfully watching, with a slightly hurting head, the beautiful
> Gtk scrollbar. 

I would not mind if it were less beautiful and more functional.
Athena scrollbars are by far the ugliest contraptions the whole world
round, but they can't be beat in functionality and ergonomy.

It is a bloody pity that one can't easily configure GTK to have the
full mouse bindings of Athena scrollbars.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Sven Utcke]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Athena scrollbars are by far the ugliest contraptions the whole world
> round, but they can't be beat in functionality and ergonomy.
> 
> It is a bloody pity that one can't easily configure GTK to have the
> full mouse bindings of Athena scrollbars.

Huh?  What bindings are there, except for middle mouse drags (or goes
to the position pointed to) and the other two scroll up and down?

Sven
-- 
 _  __                     The Cognitive Systems Group
| |/ /___  __ _ ___                                       University of Hamburg
| ' </ _ \/ _` (_-<  phone:    +49 (0)40 42883-2576      Vogt-Koelln-Strasse 30
|_|\_\___/\__, /__/  fax  :    +49 (0)40 42883-2572             D-22527 Hamburg
          |___/ http://kogs-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~utcke/home.html

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Kai Großjohann]

Sven Utcke <utcke+news@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> writes:

> Huh?  What bindings are there, except for middle mouse drags (or goes
> to the position pointed to) and the other two scroll up and down?

With that scrollbar, you can control how many lines will be
scrolled.  Clicking left/right near the top of the scrollbar will
scroll few lines, near the bottom it will scroll almost a full page.

I'm not aware of another scrollbar that allows more than "1 line"
(arrow button) or "1 page" (above/below thumb).

-- 
A preposition is not a good thing to end a sentence with.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Sven Utcke]

kai.grossjohann@gmx.net (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> Sven Utcke <utcke+news@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> writes:
> 
> > Huh?  What bindings are there, except for middle mouse drags (or goes
> > to the position pointed to) and the other two scroll up and down?
> 
> With that scrollbar, you can control how many lines will be
> scrolled.  Clicking left/right near the top of the scrollbar will
> scroll few lines, near the bottom it will scroll almost a full page.
> 
> I'm not aware of another scrollbar that allows more than "1 line"
> (arrow button) or "1 page" (above/below thumb).

Oh dear.  I didn't know there where any scrollbars out there (except
in MS-land, that is) which did _not_ implement this very usefull
behaviour.  Which shows that

a) I'm still using very old-fashioned looking programs (and yes, my
   windows-manager is fvwm.  Ver 1.24r.).
b) I better should keep it that way too.

Thanks for enlightment

Sven
-- 
 _  __                     The Cognitive Systems Group
| |/ /___  __ _ ___                                       University of Hamburg
| ' </ _ \/ _` (_-<  phone:    +49 (0)40 42883-2576      Vogt-Koelln-Strasse 30
|_|\_\___/\__, /__/  fax  :    +49 (0)40 42883-2572             D-22527 Hamburg
          |___/ http://kogs-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~utcke/home.html

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Kai Großjohann]

Sven Utcke <utcke+news@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> writes:

> Oh dear.  I didn't know there where any scrollbars out there (except
> in MS-land, that is) which did _not_ implement this very usefull
> behaviour.

Heh :-)

FWIW, the newest innovation in scrollbar land that I can remember at
the moment is to cluster the up and down arrows.  You know, normally a
scrollbar looks like this:

^
|
...lots of lines omitted...
|
v

And you click on the little "v" at the bottom and hold down the mouse
button and whoops! you have scrolled too far.  Then you get to run
the mouse from the very bottom of the screen to near the top of the
screen, have to hit the little "^" to scroll back a couple of lines.

Now, the innovation consists of making the scrollbar look like this:

^
|
...deleted lines...
|
^
v

That way, you don't have to travel so far from "v" to (the bottom) "^".

Isn't innovation wonderful?

I still have fond memories of the OpenLook (OpenWindows? XView?)
scrollbar.  There the thumb had three fields, the middle one for
dragging, the top and bottom for scrolling linewise.  And you could
click above or below the thumb/slider to scroll pagewise.

And you didn't have to move your mouse after clicking any of these!
The mouse pointer was warped to the right spot so you could keep on
clicking!  Bliss!

(It's not as nice as the Xaw scrollbar, but the Xaw scrollbar really
wants three mouse buttons, so the OpenLook thing might be good for
Macintoshes :-)
-- 
A preposition is not a good thing to end a sentence with.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[David Kastrup]

Sven Utcke <utcke+news@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Athena scrollbars are by far the ugliest contraptions the whole world
> > round, but they can't be beat in functionality and ergonomy.
> > 
> > It is a bloody pity that one can't easily configure GTK to have the
> > full mouse bindings of Athena scrollbars.
> 
> Huh?  What bindings are there, except for middle mouse drags (or goes
> to the position pointed to) and the other two scroll up and down?

Left mouse scrolls up, amount proportional to position of scroll bar
clicked, right mouse scrolls down by same amount.

Alternatively clicking left and right scrolls without moving the mouse
at all scrolls up/down by equal amounts, and the amount is determined
by the position where you click.

Position your mouse three lines down from the top, and the scroll
distance will be three lines.  Position it at the bottom, and the
scroll distance will be a full screen.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Kai Großjohann]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> It is a bloody pity that one can't easily configure GTK to have the
> full mouse bindings of Athena scrollbars.

Can one difficultly configure Gtk thusly?
-- 
A preposition is not a good thing to end a sentence with.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Miles Bader]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp-2, Size: 604 bytes --]

kai.grossjohann@gmx.net (Kai Gro^[.A^[N_johann) writes:
> > It is a bloody pity that one can't easily configure GTK to have the
> > full mouse bindings of Athena scrollbars.
> 
> Can one difficultly configure Gtk thusly?

I asked about this on emacs-devel, and the answer was `No, the bindings
in GTK are (very) hardwired.'

Agree that it sucks, but I suspect the world's been so polluted by
mac-style scrollbars, that this situation will take quite a lot of
effort to change...  At least the horrid fixed-sized thumb seems to be
on it's way out!

-Miles
-- 
^[$B<+$i$r6u$K$7$F!"?4$r3+$/;~!"F;$O3+$+$l$k^[(B

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Ole Laursen]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> I would not mind if it were less beautiful and more functional.
> Athena scrollbars are by far the ugliest contraptions the whole world
> round, but they can't be beat in functionality and ergonomy.
> 
> It is a bloody pity that one can't easily configure GTK to have the
> full mouse bindings of Athena scrollbars.

It probably has to do with that noone except perhaps 20-30 people in
this world has figured out how the Athena scrollbars work...

-- 
Ole Laursen (who didn't know about the line thing until now)
http://www.cs.auc.dk/~olau/

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Michael Powe]

>>>>> "Niels" == Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

    >> actually, i doubt it.  i'm sure that there are many who, like
    >> me, do the bulk of their editing in -- gasp -- the console.
    >> gtk will be worthless to us

    Niels> emacs was introduced to me in the early 90th by a person
    Niels> who belongs to the developers. What he installed on my
    Niels> machine was X11 emacs.  I never saw anybody editing in the
    Niels> console seriousely.  Therefore I don't believe that too
    Niels> many of people do editing in the console.  This people may
    Niels> use zile or something.

    Niels> I fully subscribe to Miles saying that "I expect that once
    Niels> the GTK version hits prime-time, it will get a lot more
    Niels> maintenance attention than the other versions "

    Niels> Furthermore I expect that, when the GTKversion hits
    Niels> prime-time, the developers will remove all the
    Niels> anachronistic xlib and motif code for the reason of a much
    Niels> slimmer code which will be much more open to the community
    Niels> for maintenance.

since a few people replied by mail to my comments, let me summarize my
responses.  

how many versions of unix include gtk libraries?  i suspect the answer
is 'none,' but someone can apprise me if i'm wrong.  i know they are
not on solaris 8, openbsd 2.7 or sunos 4.1 because i have those.  i'd
be very surprised if they were on freebsd, just because they are gpl.
therefore, restricting emacs to gtk means restricting its use to linux
users who use gnome.  not likely.

this is not a hot-button issue for me, but obviously it is for some
others.  the chances that i would ever compile gtk-emacs are near
zero.(although, the other day, i compiled and installed xemacs; used
it once.  so, anything is possible when i'm bored. ;-) everybody else
is free to do as they please.  this does remind me somewhat of the
religious wars between xemacs and gnu emacs of some years back.

i personally do not give a rip about "themes," or how "pretty" my
editor is.  emacs is a tool and a damned good one.  i use it because
it does everything i want an editor to do.  whether i'm in the
console, as now, or in x, as i was yesterday, my primary concern is
that my tools function well. (the reason i use xfce rather than
gnome.)  everyone has their sources of amusement.  some people fool
around with their desktop.  i watch chess on the chess server.  but,
at least i'm not confused that fics is somehow a necessity of life.
nor do i think that everybody should be REQUIRED to watch chess on
fics and not on ics or some other server.

as for the comment about how "nobody works in the console," well,
probably nearly everyone who, like me, works remotely, DOES use the
console.  when i'm working on a web site, i can edit and create files
directly on site because -- shock, horror -- i can use emacs in a
terminal.  since i routinely work on shell connections to solaris and
linux boxes, being able to work comfortably in the terminal is a job
requirement. (yes, i also can work comfortably with vi.)  when i'm
travelling, i ssh home for both work and mail.  most of the time, x
forwarding is impossible or impractical, even if i wanted to waste
time with it.  i seriously doubt that i am an isolated case in this
regard.

i think perhaps some people are prone to think that the whole world
is, or should be, just like them and their friends.  it's not.  it
shouldn't be.

for me, personally, the editor of choice is and probably always will
be GNU Emacs, God's Own Editor(tm).  whatever choices rms makes about
its future will be fine with me.  i trust him.  i just don't happen to
think he's going to limit it to gtk users.

from the console,
mp

-- 
  Michael Powe                                 Waterbury, CT USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"It stands to reason that self-righteous, inflexible, single-minded,
authoritarian true believers are politically organized. Open-minded,
flexible, complex, ambiguous, anti-authoritarian people would just as
soon be left to mind their own fucking business." - R.U. Sirius

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Alan Shutko]

Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:

> how many versions of unix include gtk libraries?  i suspect the answer
> is 'none,' but someone can apprise me if i'm wrong.  

Solaris 9 will be shipping Gnome as the default desktop.
http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/licensing/gnome.html

-- 
Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> - I am the rocks.
Looking for a developer in St. Louis? http://web.springies.com/~ats/
Of course dragons can flyWhy on earth would they have those wings?

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Michael Powe]

>>>>> "Alan" == Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> writes:

    Alan> Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:
    >> how many versions of unix include gtk libraries?  i suspect the
    >> answer is 'none,' but someone can apprise me if i'm wrong.

    Alan> Solaris 9 will be shipping Gnome as the default desktop.
    Alan> http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/licensing/gnome.html

thanks for the update.  myself, i can't see where gnome is a huge
improvement over the cde interface ... yes, it looks nicer but it is
just a resources hog.  still.

mp

-- 
  Michael Powe                                 Waterbury, CT USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"It stands to reason that self-righteous, inflexible, single-minded,
authoritarian true believers are politically organized. Open-minded,
flexible, complex, ambiguous, anti-authoritarian people would just as
soon be left to mind their own fucking business." - R.U. Sirius

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Jason Earl]

Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:

>>>>>> "Alan" == Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> writes:
>
>     Alan> Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:
>     >> how many versions of unix include gtk libraries?  i suspect the
>     >> answer is 'none,' but someone can apprise me if i'm wrong.
>
>     Alan> Solaris 9 will be shipping Gnome as the default desktop.
>     Alan> http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/licensing/gnome.html
>
> thanks for the update.  myself, i can't see where gnome is a huge
> improvement over the cde interface ... yes, it looks nicer but it is
> just a resources hog.  still.
>
> mp

Sun sells hardware.  Desktop software that looks nice but needs more
resources to run well is good for their bottom line.

Jason

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Michael Powe]

>>>>> "Jason" == Jason Earl <jearl@wegointer.net> writes:

    Jason> Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:
    >>>>>>> "Alan" == Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> writes:
    >>
    Alan> Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:
    >> >> how many versions of unix include gtk libraries?  i suspect
    >> the >> answer is 'none,' but someone can apprise me if i'm
    >> wrong.
    >> 
    Alan> Solaris 9 will be shipping Gnome as the default desktop.
    Alan> http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/licensing/gnome.html
    >>  thanks for the update.  myself, i can't see where gnome is a
    >> huge improvement over the cde interface ... yes, it looks nicer
    >> but it is just a resources hog.  still.
    >> 
    >> mp

    Jason> Sun sells hardware.  Desktop software that looks nice but
    Jason> needs more resources to run well is good for their bottom
    Jason> line.

good point.  ;-)

mp

-- 
  Michael Powe                                 Waterbury, CT USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"It stands to reason that self-righteous, inflexible, single-minded,
authoritarian true believers are politically organized. Open-minded,
flexible, complex, ambiguous, anti-authoritarian people would just as
soon be left to mind their own fucking business." - R.U. Sirius

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Sven Utcke]

Jason Earl <jearl@wegointer.net> writes:

> Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:
> 
> >>>>>> "Alan" == Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> writes:
> >
> >     Alan> Solaris 9 will be shipping Gnome as the default desktop.
> >     Alan> http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/licensing/gnome.html
> >
> > thanks for the update.  myself, i can't see where gnome is a huge
> > improvement over the cde interface ... yes, it looks nicer but it is
> > just a resources hog.  still.
> 
> Sun sells hardware.  Desktop software that looks nice but needs more
> resources to run well is good for their bottom line.

Well, SUN sells _slow_ hardware, so I still don't see how gnome would
help them --- just the opposite, people will be able to compare
performance with their supermarket-bought home PCs --- and will see
SUN come out second.  Certainly happens here, on brandnew SunBlades
(which, truth be told, are hardly more than SUN-labbeled supermarket
PCs anyway, and pretty good awful ones for that).

Sven
-- 
 _  __                     The Cognitive Systems Group
| |/ /___  __ _ ___                                       University of Hamburg
| ' </ _ \/ _` (_-<  phone:    +49 (0)40 42883-2576      Vogt-Koelln-Strasse 30
|_|\_\___/\__, /__/  fax  :    +49 (0)40 42883-2572             D-22527 Hamburg
          |___/ http://kogs-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~utcke/home.html

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Daniel R. Anderson]

<snip>
> Well, SUN sells _slow_ hardware, so I still don't see how gnome would
</snip>

Out of curiousity if Sun's hardware is so slow why do so many people use
it and why are they the huge company that they are?

I'm not arguing that sun's hardware is slow or fast, btw.  I'm just
curious because I /know/ sun exists, but have never had the joy of
playing on one.  :-(

-- 
Daniel R. Anderson
Chief Lab Rat and Helper Monkey
Great Lakes Industries, Inc.
80 Pineview Ave.
Buffalo, NY 14218
(716) 691-5900 x218

"Never let your schooling interfere with your education"
	-- Mark Twain

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Tim X]

>>>>> "Daniel" == Daniel R Anderson <dan@mathjunkies.com> writes:

 Daniel> <snip>
 >> Well, SUN sells _slow_ hardware, so I still don't see how gnome
 >> would
 Daniel> </snip>

 Daniel> Out of curiousity if Sun's hardware is so slow why do so many
 Daniel> people use it and why are they the huge company that they
 Daniel> are?

I think, when talking about SUN's hardware, you need to distinguish
between server and workstation application. As a server, Sun has some
very nice features which make it very useful. In particular, Sun
serves are able to handle large memory models (e.g. +4Gb) a lot better
than Linux which has problems with large memory models. Sun servers
with multiple processors have the ability to continue working even
when one processor fails. At one place where I worked, the
air-conditioning in the server room broke down one weekend. The temp
got high and all the intel (Linux and Windows) servers died. The sun
servers continued to wrk even though some of them had lost processors
due to the heat. I also think Sun has a better bus architecture for
high end hardware and can obtain a higher through put.

I actually suspect Sun hardware is quite good and fast even on
workstations (though still very expensive) and its the OS which makes
it appear slow. Some years ago I was given permission to load Linux
onto a sparc station. We thought it was a real dog of a box because it
seemed about equal to a 486. It had been running solaris. We were
amazed at the performance increase once we put linux on it. The system
was a lot more stable and in fact, last time I visited this old
employer about 6 months ago, that sun box was still purring along with
Linux and had been up for over 12 months.

Tim
-- 
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you 
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Ed Cavazos]

Tim X <timx@spamto.devnul.com> writes:

> I think, when talking about SUN's hardware, you need to distinguish
> between server and workstation application.

Tim is right here. Many people get the idea that the traditional UNIX
workstations (Sun SPARCs, IBM RS/6000s, HP PA-RISCs) are slow. Yet
this, I believe, is due to the narrow perspective that the typical
user gets, via the CDE (Common Desktop Environment). CDE is sluggish,
even on the latest workstations. My respect for old IBM RS/6000 43Ps
(233 Mhz) was renewed when I saw how responsive KDE ran on them. The
same goes for Suns running Gnome.

Ed

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Stefan Monnier]

> very nice features which make it very useful.  In particular, Sun
> servers are able to handle large memory models (e.g. +4Gb) a lot better
> than Linux which has problems with large memory models.  Sun servers

Do not confuse machines (like Sun servers) with the operating
systems that might be running on it (like GNU/Linux or Solaris).


        Stefan

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Sven Utcke]

Tim X <timx@spamto.devnul.com> writes:

> due to the heat. I also think Sun has a better bus architecture for
> high end hardware and can obtain a higher through put.

I don't think that's true anymore when compared to modern PCs (but
might be wrong) --- it certainly would be true only for SUN's highend
servers...

> I actually suspect Sun hardware is quite good and fast even on
> workstations (though still very expensive) and its the OS which makes

Nope.  The new Sunblades are real dogs, with processors in the 700MHz
range (or, more likely, below), an 80MHz PCI bus and IDE-everything
--- no matter what OS, for most applications they're about equal to a
Pentium III at about 1GHz, which cost about 1/8th...

Sven
-- 
 _  __                     The Cognitive Systems Group
| |/ /___  __ _ ___                                       University of Hamburg
| ' </ _ \/ _` (_-<  phone:    +49 (0)40 42883-2576      Vogt-Koelln-Strasse 30
|_|\_\___/\__, /__/  fax  :    +49 (0)40 42883-2572             D-22527 Hamburg
          |___/ http://kogs-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~utcke/home.html

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Garglemonster]

>>>>> "Daniel" == Daniel R Anderson <dan@mathjunkies.com> writes:

    Daniel> <snip>
    >> Well, SUN sells _slow_ hardware, so I still don't see how gnome
    >> would
    Daniel> </snip>

    Daniel> Out of curiousity if Sun's hardware is so slow why do so
    Daniel> many people use it and why are they the huge company that
    Daniel> they are?


there are other things besides speed and workstations.

-- 
garglemonster@my-deja.com

How many Lives per Gallon?

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Sven Utcke]

"Daniel R. Anderson" <dan@mathjunkies.com> writes:

> <snip>
> > Well, SUN sells _slow_ hardware, so I still don't see how gnome would
> </snip>
> 
> Out of curiousity if Sun's hardware is so slow why do so many people use
> it and why are they the huge company that they are?

Because it is reliable and scales nicely (the _real_ computers, that
is, not the relabelled PCs they are nowadays selling).  Even the
fastest server is still pretty slow, certainly when compared to the
power half the money would buy in Linux-powered PCs, but the nice
thing is that for 100 users it's not that much slower than what it was
for 1 (which even nowadays can't be said for Linux).  And of course
you can leave them running 24/365, and they will hardly ever break,
and if they do are _very_ easy to fix.

Still, that said you could get the same reliability and similar
performance out of a couple of Linux-PCs --- it might just be harder
to get someone to set it up for you...

Sven
-- 
 _  __                     The Cognitive Systems Group
| |/ /___  __ _ ___                                       University of Hamburg
| ' </ _ \/ _` (_-<  phone:    +49 (0)40 42883-2576      Vogt-Koelln-Strasse 30
|_|\_\___/\__, /__/  fax  :    +49 (0)40 42883-2572             D-22527 Hamburg
          |___/ http://kogs-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~utcke/home.html

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Daniel Jensen]

Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:

> how many versions of unix include gtk libraries?  i suspect the answer
> is 'none,' but someone can apprise me if i'm wrong.  i know they are
> not on solaris 8, openbsd 2.7 or sunos 4.1 because i have those.  i'd
> be very surprised if they were on freebsd, just because they are gpl.
> therefore, restricting emacs to gtk means restricting its use to linux
> users who use gnome.  not likely.

Why wouldn't FreeBSD use GPL code? They use GCC, right? Doesn't
OpenBSD do that too?

And FYI, GTK is not only for GNOME. It's a standard toolkit on GNU
systems. Many non-GNOME programs use it. You obviously know this as
you are using XFce, another GTK desktop environment.

I don't argue that Emacs should be GTK only, but I do think that GTK
is a great step forward for Emacs. It makes Emacs blend well together
with the rest of the GNU desktop, and I think it will encourage more
would-be users to try it out in the future.

-- 
Daniel Jensen
$ (format (concat "mailto:" "%s@%s.%s") "daniel" "bigwalter" "net")

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Michael Powe]

>>>>> "Daniel" == Daniel Jensen <daniel-news@bigwalter.net> writes:

    Daniel> Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:
    >> how many versions of unix include gtk libraries?  i suspect the
    >> answer is 'none,' but someone can apprise me if i'm wrong.  i
    >> know they are not on solaris 8, openbsd 2.7 or sunos 4.1
    >> because i have those.  i'd be very surprised if they were on
    >> freebsd, just because they are gpl.  therefore, restricting
    >> emacs to gtk means restricting its use to linux users who use
    >> gnome.  not likely.

    Daniel> Why wouldn't FreeBSD use GPL code? They use GCC, right?
    Daniel> Doesn't OpenBSD do that too?

they do use some gpl (gcc, e.g.) but freebsd'ers are among the
principal proponents of the "gpl virus" theory.  they isolate gpl in
their dev tree.  they often can be found in gnu.misc.discuss flaming
rms.

    Daniel> And FYI, GTK is not only for GNOME. It's a standard
    Daniel> toolkit on GNU systems. Many non-GNOME programs use
    Daniel> it. You obviously know this as you are using XFce, another
    Daniel> GTK desktop environment.

    Daniel> I don't argue that Emacs should be GTK only, but I do
    Daniel> think that GTK is a great step forward for Emacs. It makes
    Daniel> Emacs blend well together with the rest of the GNU
    Daniel> desktop, and I think it will encourage more would-be users
    Daniel> to try it out in the future.

yes, it's fine with me, i was more objecting to the tone of the OP,
who (along with some others) seems to think that the only user base
for emacs is composed of gnome/gtk users on linux.  it seems that many
who broke away to form Xemacs also thought it would spell the end of
GNU emacs.

mp

-- 
  Michael Powe                                 Waterbury, CT USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"It stands to reason that self-righteous, inflexible, single-minded,
authoritarian true believers are politically organized. Open-minded,
flexible, complex, ambiguous, anti-authoritarian people would just as
soon be left to mind their own fucking business." - R.U. Sirius

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Bijan Soleymani]

Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:

>     Daniel> Why wouldn't FreeBSD use GPL code? They use GCC, right?
>     Daniel> Doesn't OpenBSD do that too?
> 
> they do use some gpl (gcc, e.g.) but freebsd'ers are among the
> principal proponents of the "gpl virus" theory.  they isolate gpl in
> their dev tree.  they often can be found in gnu.misc.discuss flaming
> rms.

That doesn't really pose a problem. If they don't use GPL programs
they won't use emacs anyways (many use vi). If they do then why would
they not use gtk, when there are so many programs that use gtk, (gimp,
evolution, etc.).

On a side note, gnome is available for FreeBSD, Solaris, etc.

Bijan

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[David Kastrup]

Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:

> they do use some gpl (gcc, e.g.) but freebsd'ers are among the
> principal proponents of the "gpl virus" theory.  they isolate gpl in
> their dev tree.  they often can be found in gnu.misc.discuss flaming
> rms.

Don't agree.  Those that make it a pastime to flame in
gnu.misc.discuss usually have stopped actively developing FreeBSD (if
they did so before).  And they don't really constitute a significant
ratio of FreeBSD developers.

Most serious developers don't have the time to indulge in pointless
flamewars and trolling, as flaming the GPL on gnu.misc.discuss
certainly is.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Michael Powe]

>>>>> "David" == David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

    David> Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:
    >> they do use some gpl (gcc, e.g.) but freebsd'ers are among the
    >> principal proponents of the "gpl virus" theory.  they isolate
    >> gpl in their dev tree.  they often can be found in
    >> gnu.misc.discuss flaming rms.

    David> Don't agree.  Those that make it a pastime to flame in
    David> gnu.misc.discuss usually have stopped actively developing
    David> FreeBSD (if they did so before).  And they don't really
    David> constitute a significant ratio of FreeBSD developers.

    David> Most serious developers don't have the time to indulge in
    David> pointless flamewars and trolling, as flaming the GPL on
    David> gnu.misc.discuss certainly is.

no argument there, but gnu is isolated in its own "branch" of the
freebsd tree.

mp

-- 
  Michael Powe                                 Waterbury, CT USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"It stands to reason that self-righteous, inflexible, single-minded,
authoritarian true believers are politically organized. Open-minded,
flexible, complex, ambiguous, anti-authoritarian people would just as
soon be left to mind their own fucking business." - R.U. Sirius

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Per Abrahamsen]

Michael Powe <michael@trollope.org> writes:

> how many versions of unix include gtk libraries?  i suspect the answer
> is 'none,' but someone can apprise me if i'm wrong.  i know they are
> not on solaris 8, openbsd 2.7 or sunos 4.1 because i have those.  i'd
> be very surprised if they were on freebsd, just because they are gpl.
> therefore, restricting emacs to gtk means restricting its use to linux
> users who use gnome.  not likely.

GTK is not GPL, but LGPL.  Which mean people can build lock-in
applications on top of it, without paying a dime to anyone.

I guess that is part of why Sun choose it for Solaris 9.

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Hallvard B Furuseth]

Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> wrote:

> I never saw anybody editing in the console seriousely.
> Therefore I don't believe that too many of people do editing in the
> console.

And it doesn't occur to you that it might instead have something to do
with what kind of people and environment you live with.

> This people may use zile or something.

Why on Earth should I install a separate and inferior editor and
maintain a separate config file for it just to be able to edit in my
non-X11 environments as well as in X11?  And probably use a separate
mail reader and news reader with storage separate from my normal mail
and news folders and files, since I doubt your zile supports VM and
GNUS?

-- 
Hallvard

Re: New Emacs with GTK!

[Nick Roberts]

> actually, i doubt it.  i'm sure that there are many who, like me, do
> the bulk of their editing in -- gasp -- the console.  gtk will be
> worthless to us.

And for those using a graphical terminal, ncurses is presumably useless to
them. I don't see the problem. Surely that is one of the good things about
Emacs: everyone can choose the features that they want to use. I only see a
problem if there is a feature you do want and Emacs doesn't have it.

Nick