From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Where is Emacs Lisp taught ? 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[128.53.251.192]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w66-v6sm11002307pfb.51.2018.10.24.16.30.23 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:30:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <875zxr7zke.fsf@portable.galex-713.eu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::529 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:118396 Archived-At: I am really asking about Emacs Lisp, not about any other Lisp dialect. If it is included in a course on Lisp as a way to manipulate Emacs it's = good, but that's really what I want to know. Jean-Christophe=20 > On Oct 25, 2018, at 7:24, Garreau, Alexandre = wrote: >=20 > On 2018-10-24 at 18:02, Emanuel Berg wrote: >> Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: >>=20 >>> I'm trying to gather information about Emacs >>> Lisp and specifically about where it is taught >>> (bootcamps/universities, etc.) >>>=20 >>> Has anybody information on that? >>=20 >> I don't think that Emacs Lisp in particular is >> thought anywhere, but Lisp is thought at >> universities around the world, sometimes as >> part of courses in "functional programming", >> where other languages might be included as >> well, e.g. Haskell and Erlang (perhaps >> sometimes SML). >=20 > Until then I heard they teached scheme from college 2nd year in the > capital of the region (racket I guess, unless it=E2=80=99s = mit-scheme), and > everywhere else afaik it=E2=80=99s OCaml in France (maybe = nationalism?). >=20 >> And I think it is better to teach CL than Elisp, in all honesty... >=20 > I am not sure. Elisp is often to be considered a bad language, but it > has the somewhat rare and paradoxal double advantage (peculiar to = lisp, > but more extreme here) of both having a simple and naive = implementation, > and yet being quite high level and extremely close to I/O. It also is > quite much used (I bet its usage proportion is comparable to CL and > scheme united). >=20 > Those are obvious advantages when learning programming, and are main > reasons why so far I saw stupidities such as using javascript, (damn) > VisualBasic, or python, taught to students for learning programming: > easy GUI, very imperative style, ability to do more or less functional > stuff. >=20 > But in reality, what is important is not GUI, but easy access to I/O = (so > to easily develop concrete software that will solve concrete problems = so > to better discover how programming is useful), and usage potential: > elisp, unlike scheme so far, has many interesting and powerful = libraries > for interacting with the internet, files, keyboard, screen, and these > are extremely easy to use, compared to SDL C programming, VB GUI > programming, GTK interface usage, or even shellscripts sometimes. >=20 > I believe, especially in first year, what is important is give to > students what will make them want to pursue their studies, and, if = they > fail or stop them, to keep programming stuff. So they need an > environment regularly giving them interesting practical problems, and > making them easy to solve. In this respect, unless using some bad > language such as python or javascript, differently bad languages such = as > elisp and bash are going to be way more useful and simple to learn and > not to forgot. >=20 > I=E2=80=99d like to see some course introduce =E2=80=9Cemacs = macros=E2=80=9D, then some lisp > config, then progressively teach people how to program without them = even > knowing it, like I saw it happened to some people before (like first > Gosling Emacs user, beside Gosling himself, iirc). It would be cool. > We need more programming literacy in general population. >=20 Jean-Christophe Helary ----------------------------------------------- http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune