From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: bk_usenet@yahoo.co.uk (BK) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Is Emacs on Aqua crippleware or is it just broken? Date: 7 May 2003 07:51:37 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+gnu-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <39d9c156.0305070651.fca584@posting.google.com> References: <39d9c156.0305042200.1639a252@posting.google.com> <878ytl3to2.fsf@enberg.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1052320591 6049 80.91.224.249 (7 May 2003 15:16:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 15:16:31 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+gnu-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed May 07 17:16:30 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19DQZH-00012G-00 for ; Wed, 07 May 2003 17:10:52 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 19DQKy-0006k6-0A for gnu-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 07 May 2003 10:56:04 -0400 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.sys.mac.apps Original-Lines: 79 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 211.132.31.10 Original-X-Trace: posting.google.com 1052319097 13821 127.0.0.1 (7 May 2003 14:51:37 GMT) Original-X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 May 2003 14:51:37 GMT Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:112892 comp.sys.mac.apps:360775 Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+gnu-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:9388 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:9388 tristero wrote ... > The carbon emacs port can use either Option or Command as meta; > whichever one isn't Meta becomes Alt. It's configured by the variable > mac-command-key-is-meta. At one point the default value of this > variable was t. I set it to nil explicitly in ~/.emacs so that the > behavior matches emacs in an osx Terminal and also in X11 (with a > sensible .xmodmap): in my environment all three use Option for meta (I > never use Alt in emacs). Thank you. This looks like something constructive can come out of it. As I mentioned, I have reason to believe that on the Emacs I use Cmd is used as META because Cmd-x produces (one of the few keyboard shortcuts that do work). Now, considering that I intend to put this all down in a step-by-step guide for ILISP newbies, it will quite obviously have the effect of a recommendation if it says something like "do this and this to make Option your META key". Therefore, before I ask you how to do this, let me first ask you whether you believe that making Option to become META is a good thing to recommend to people who are less interested in Emacs, but whose main objective is to set up an IDE to either study or work in Lisp? Also, people who will need that guide are probably inexperienced. Someone who has been using Emacs on another platform before and knows his way around is unlikely to need a someone like myself to tell him how to set up Emacs with ILISP. So, considering the target audience, is it a reasonable recommendation to make Option to become META? If so, the next question is how exactly do you do it? What is the command that goes into ~/.emacs ? Further, as there are various things in ~/.ilisp, what do I need to look out for to make sure there is no side effect on ILISP? By that I mean how can I check that making Option to become META will not break some keyboard related command within ~/.ilisp ? Or is there no danger of that? > As for the carbon port not matching Aqua conventions, it's hard to > know what to say. The carbon port is functionally outstanding; it > deserves nothing but praise imo. The OP's contention that the lack of > predefined support for Cmd-q makes this "crippleware" or "broken" is > truly an amazing feat of pettiness, even for usenet. You read something into my post that clearly isn't there. I didn't say that not adhering to Apple keyboard shortcuts make Emacs crippled or broken. What I said was that (a) not having *any* pasting method (neither Mac nor Emacs methods) working; *plus* (b) not having *any* quit-application method (neither Mac nor Emacs methods) *plus* (c) not having the majority of Emacs keyboard shortcuts work, all of that make it either crippled or broken. The fact of the matter is that I cannot do any pasting, no matter what method I use. As other versions of Emacs do support pasting, the absence of pasting in the Aqua version would indeed make it crippled in relation to other Emacs versions if this was intentional. Likewise, I cannot quit Emacs other than by forcing it (kill -9). As other versions of Emacs do support quitting the application, the absence of quitting in the Aqua version of Emacs would indeed make it crippled in relation to other Emacs versions if this was intentional. But even then, I gave Emacs the benefit of doubt and I did not call it crippleware. I said it did "exhibit severe symptoms of crippleware". Then I described each observation and for each observation I asked whether this was supposed to be that way (feature) or not (bug). I know many people don't read thoroughly enough and only pick up a few words, but that is hardly my fault. The only thing you can accuse me of is that I said "excuse for an editor" which was in the context of being nitpicked and flamed. If there are any Emacs Aqua developers who take offense by that heat-of-the-moment statement, then I apologise for that, but anything else I said was fair and just. rgds bk