From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rusi Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: if vs. when vs. and: style question Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2d758e8c-51ca-44fd-bc25-7f40d42630ce@googlegroups.com> References: <87sicvwckx.fsf@wmi.amu.edu.pl> <87wq27yvqg.fsf@debian.uxu> <8d531e99-7260-4263-ac99-09c6871e2708@googlegroups.com> <87vbhq53lf.fsf@debian.uxu> <87a8z23p23.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> <87lhilx0cf.fsf@debian.uxu> <87twx9360u.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> <0d1d19ab-06e9-462d-8867-9a49b1e232d3@googlegroups.com> <87pp7x2jav.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> <87d23s4nt4.fsf@debian.uxu> <7e8ddf8f-163a-4d16-9ce2-25b0cb3f35aa@googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1427680845 14606 80.91.229.3 (30 Mar 2015 02:00:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 02:00:45 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 30 04:00:36 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YcP03-0000Ey-SU for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 30 Mar 2015 04:00:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58933 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YcP02-0003nK-Il for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 29 Mar 2015 22:00:22 -0400 X-Received: by 10.182.248.227 with SMTP id yp3mr38186578obc.22.1427680541909; Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:55:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.51.67 with SMTP id i3mr138777igo.15.1427680541895; Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!h15no1088669igd.0!news-out.google.com!q14ni2873ign.0!nntp.google.com!h15no1088666igd.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help In-Reply-To: Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=117.195.63.4; posting-account=mBpa7woAAAAGLEWUUKpmbxm-Quu5D8ui Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 117.195.63.4 User-Agent: G2/1.0 Injection-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 01:55:41 +0000 Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:211153 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:103435 Archived-At: On Sunday, March 29, 2015 at 7:36:17 PM UTC+5:30, =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: > Rusi writes: >=20 > [snip] >=20 > > And even Elisp! > > > > *** Welcome to IELM *** Type (describe-mode) for help. > > ELISP> (setq =CE=B1 1 =CE=B2 2 =CE=B3 3) > > 3 (#o3, #x3, ?\C-c) > > ELISP> (list =CE=B1 =CE=B2 =CE=B3) > > (1 2 3) >=20 > Some months ago I experimented with using Unicode on my coding. I was > very excited about it. At the end, the experience showed without a doubt > that it is a bad idea. One of the reasons is very familiar to us: a > funtamental feature of a programmer's font is how clearly it > distinguishes 1 from l, 0 from O. Using Unicode makes this problem > explode. >=20 Thank you Oscar for some (rather rare) reasonable argument. [Compared to yours much of the rest I see here is on the lines: "Since my keyboard is broken; kindly allow me to break yours!" As I pointed out earlier what you point out is true and considerably worse = than that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDN_homograph_attack The point is that this choice has already been made: many languages are alr= eady *carelessly* accepting unicode. Some are a little more laissez-faire than others: 1. "=EF=AC=82ag" and "flag" are the same identifier in python; but differen= t in=20 haskell and elisp. IMHO python has made the more sane choice 2. Haskell and Elisp accept x=E2=82=81 , Python doesn't. I think python is = wrong here 3. Haskell allows =E2=86=92 for -> =E2=86=90 for <- (very heavily used in h= askell) However the symbol that defines its very identity and is its logo =E2=80=93= =CE=BB =E2=80=93 it does not allow because its in letter category. > > ELISP>=20 > > > > How much costly was that =CE=B1 to type than alpha?? One backslash!! > > > > Add to that the fact that programs are read > > - 10 times more than written during development > > - 100 times more during maintenance >=20 > Precisely, my experience is that Unicode makes things much harder to > read, and not ony because the problem mentioned above. You are raising a point about a certain software/hardware that we all use a= nd that no one understands =E2=80=93 our brains. Consider: APL is generally regarded as unreadable. [That it is often derisively calle= d 'writeonly' not unwriteable is a separate discussion] But neither is Cobol regarded as readable. And worst of all is machine-lang= uage. If an arbitrarily restricted charset were a good fit to our brains, Cobol, = which expressly tries to mirror layman prose (ie stay within [A-Za-z0-9] ) would = have=20 worked better. And while our machines seem mighty pleased with building the= =20 universe from {0,1}, our brains (ok at least mine) suffers on reading=20 machine-code. So where on the spectrum between APL/conventional laissez-faire math and Cobol/Machine-code is the optimum? I believe this is an open question