Help for eclipse

Help for eclipse

[edu500ac]

I have two questions. The first one needs qualification. One of the great things in Vim is the help system. It is very complete, with examples and tutorials in many languages, even in Esperanto and Guarani. I wonder whether there is a similar help system for Evil. Is there? I understand that the Vim community created their help system, and that if Emacs users want one, it is necessary to work for it. However, I don't want to start adapting the Vim help system to Evil if somebody already did it.

The second question is about Eclipse. When I visited their page early this morning, there was a claim saying that Eclipse was downloaded almost 5 millions of times. I wonder how many downloads Emacs have. But the question is not this one. I use Emacs to serve dynamic html pages. It makes sense, because generating dynamic pages requires text processing operations, and Emacs is a text editor. Then I tried to compare the speed of Emacs and Eclipse. I must have done something wrong, because Eclipse is proving to be very slow in my machine. 

While Emacs start up time is considerably less than 1 second (half a second with a lot of plugins), Eclipse is taking 15 seconds, no plugins. Besides this, Eclipse takes almost 10 minutes to accept a game project with  20000 lines of C. Again, flymake checks for erros almost in real time. To make a long story short, Eclipse is proving to be so slow that it is uncomfortable to use productively. Is this true? Is Eclipse very slow?

In any case, I need to bench-mark the start up speed of Emacs. Therefore, I created a file that worked well under normal conditions. Here it is:

;; File: kill.el
(insert "Hello, world!")
(save-buffer)
(kill-emacs)


Here is how to use it:

Kostas$ time emacs test.txt -Q -nw -l kill.el

real	0m0.128s
user	0m0.604s
sys	0m0.043s


I want also the startup time of Emacsclient. Therefore I started Emacs daemon. 

emacs -Q --daemon

However, Emacs client does not have a -l opetion. Therefore, I tried something like this:

Kostas$ time emacsclient -e '(progn (find-file "ttxt.txt") (insert "Message1") (save-buffer))'
nil

real	0m0.014s
user	0m0.001s
sys	0m0.002s
 
My first question is whether there is a way to put the script inside a file, instead of on the command line.

Re: Help for eclipse

[Emanuel Berg]

edu500ac@gmail.com writes:

> I must have done something wrong, because Eclipse is
> proving to be very slow in my machine.

I don't think you did anything wrong. Eclipse is a
total pain. I only used it once in a school project
with a couple of people so for the sake of not making a
fuss I played along. I'm never doing that again, and my
experience with Eclipse told me there is absolutely no
hope for that piece of software. And it is of course no
coincidence that people use if for Java...

> While Emacs start up time is considerably less than 1
> second

Also it doesn't really matter as the best usage is to
start it once, then keep it open. Don't use it to open
files from the shell, i.e., once for every file (or
group of files). Launch Emacs once automatically, then
open files from within Emacs.

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Help for eclipse

[adrians]

Emanuel, so based on your extensive experience with Eclipse it's a total pain? Right. I can tell you from having used if for a heck of a lot longer than you used it for that, configured with the proper settings, it can be significantly snappier than Emacs - at least under Windows. In fact the general clunkiness of Emacs' scrolling still bothers the heck out of me. As for which of these two environments is easier to get accustomed to for someone new to them, please don't suggest that it's Emacs. For years now, Eclipse has had straightforward UI discoverability through the use of Ctrl-3 which allows you to search through all commands, views, menus, etc., from one spot.

Just to be clear, I'm not contesting Emacs' greater extensibility and power overall, just your statement that Eclipse is "a pain" and, by implication, that Emacs is not, from a noob's perspective.

On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 7:55:24 PM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> edu500ac@gmail.com writes:
> 
> 
> 
> > I must have done something wrong, because Eclipse is
> 
> > proving to be very slow in my machine.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you did anything wrong. Eclipse is a
> 
> total pain. I only used it once in a school project
> 
> with a couple of people so for the sake of not making a
> 
> fuss I played along. I'm never doing that again, and my
> 
> experience with Eclipse told me there is absolutely no
> 
> hope for that piece of software. And it is of course no
> 
> coincidence that people use if for Java...
> 
> 
> 
> > While Emacs start up time is considerably less than 1
> 
> > second
> 
> 
> 
> Also it doesn't really matter as the best usage is to
> 
> start it once, then keep it open. Don't use it to open
> 
> files from the shell, i.e., once for every file (or
> 
> group of files). Launch Emacs once automatically, then
> 
> open files from within Emacs.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> underground experts united:
> 
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Help for eclipse

[Emanuel Berg]

adrians <nmanole@gmail.com> writes:

> Emanuel, so based on your extensive experience with
> Eclipse it's a total pain?

I don't need extensive experience with Eclipse to know
it sucks. I have very specific and well-defined
parameters for what makes for good software. I can use
just about any application and instantly know if it is
software that "is me" or not.

> Right. I can tell you from having used if for a heck
> of a lot longer than you used it for that, configured
> with the proper settings, it can be significantly
> snappier than Emacs - at least under Windows.

Snappy on Windows - isn't that a contradiction in
terms?

> In fact the general clunkiness of Emacs' scrolling
> still bothers the heck out of me.

(setq scroll-conservatively 10000)
(setq auto-window-vscroll nil)

Emacs is programmable - more on scrolling (one line at
a time or in panes; left-to-right; etc.): [1]

> As for which of these two environments is easier to
> get accustomed to for someone new to them, please
> don't suggest that it's Emacs.

I don't care for new users that are negativistic about
it. I was a new user once as well and while I read two
books I used Emacs simultaneously and every day made
improvements - to Emacs (as I saw it), and to my own
understanding of it (and those two qualities are not
easily separable after a while) - and never did I
feel it was unpleasant or burdensome - the only thing I
regret was being a bit too public about it, so people
got expedition fever, and I didn't understand that, and
got into some flame wars. Well, hell. Other than that,
configuring/programming Emacs and learning Lisp was a
wonderful experience, and I'm happy every day that I
have a system which is to 95% exactly what I want.

> For years now, Eclipse has had straightforward UI
> discoverability through the use of Ctrl-3 which
> allows you to search through all commands, views,
> menus, etc., from one spot.

Menus! - why don't you go use Finder if you like menus
so much? (But there are GUI menus in the X version of
Emacs, so that shouldn't be a problem for you if you
really want them.) As for online help that's very
elaborate in Emacs with the the dynamic docstring system
that lets you add documentation at the same place as
the code, and where documentation becomes instantly
available at the moment that code is made available.

> Just to be clear, I'm not contesting Emacs' greater
> extensibility and power overall, just your statement
> that Eclipse is "a pain" and, by implication, that
> Emacs is not, from a noob's perspective.

Emacs is much better in every aspect than Eclipse but I
don't think there is any implication at work.

[1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/scroll.el

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Help for eclipse

[Rusi]

On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 8:25:52 AM UTC+5:30, adrians wrote:

> Emanuel, so based on your extensive experience with Eclipse it's a
> total pain?  Right. I can tell you from having used if for a heck of
> a lot longer than you used it for that, configured with the proper
> settings, it can be significantly snappier than Emacs - at least
> under Windows. In fact the general clunkiness of Emacs' scrolling
> still bothers the heck out of me. As for which of these two
> environments is easier to get accustomed to for someone new to them,
> please don't suggest that it's Emacs. For years now, Eclipse has had
> straightforward UI discoverability through the use of Ctrl-3 which
> allows you to search through all commands, views, menus, etc., from
> one spot.

Thanks Adrians for Ctrl-3.

I always have the impression that eclipse is a very powerful system.
And get completely lost finding my way round.

Do you have any suggestions for a beginner?  Where/how to find help?
My main current interest is html-css linkage

Re: Help for eclipse

[adrians]

On Thursday, June 12, 2014 10:12:34 PM UTC-4, Rusi wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 8:25:52 AM UTC+5:30, adrians wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Emanuel, so based on your extensive experience with Eclipse it's a
> 
> > total pain?  Right. I can tell you from having used if for a heck of
> 
> > a lot longer than you used it for that, configured with the proper
> 
> > settings, it can be significantly snappier than Emacs - at least
> 
> > under Windows. In fact the general clunkiness of Emacs' scrolling
> 
> > still bothers the heck out of me. As for which of these two
> 
> > environments is easier to get accustomed to for someone new to them,
> 
> > please don't suggest that it's Emacs. For years now, Eclipse has had
> 
> > straightforward UI discoverability through the use of Ctrl-3 which
> 
> > allows you to search through all commands, views, menus, etc., from
> 
> > one spot.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Adrians for Ctrl-3.
> 
> 
> 
> I always have the impression that eclipse is a very powerful system.
> 
> And get completely lost finding my way round.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any suggestions for a beginner?  Where/how to find help?
> 
> My main current interest is html-css linkage

Rusi, feel free to contact me directly so that we don't spam this group with off-topic subjects.

Re: Help for eclipse

[Rusi]

On Friday, June 13, 2014 8:27:35 AM UTC+5:30, adrians wrote:
> Rusi, feel free to contact me directly so that we don't spam this group with off-topic subjects.

Thanks Adrian