From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: poor Customize [was: Trying to right-align my window on startup] Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:35:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2c69b6dc-465b-4e76-bfac-c6762fd8c6e5@default> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1389461778 5134 80.91.229.3 (11 Jan 2014 17:36:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 17:36:18 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Mickey.Ferguson@cassidiancommunications.com, Emacs Help List To: Juanma Barranquero Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 11 18:36:23 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W22Tv-0007wZ-Fl for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:36:23 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34944 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W22Tv-0001BB-4z for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:36:23 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:49712) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W22Td-000196-0e for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:36:13 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W22TU-0007NE-9b for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:36:04 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:42980) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W22TL-0007MS-7h; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:35:47 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0BHZior028567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 11 Jan 2014 17:35:44 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0BHZgWf001358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 11 Jan 2014 17:35:43 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0015.oracle.com (abhmp0015.oracle.com [141.146.116.21]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0BHZgPt014011; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 17:35:42 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:95360 Archived-At: > > But (IMHO) too many people ignore Customize, often because > > they've gotten the impression somehow that it is for > > non-Lispers or wimps. >=20 > I just hate its UI. Right. I think no one is crazy about it. Another thing that is unfortunate, especially because it is related (discourages improvement attempts) is the nearly impenetrable source code (try following it in the debugger!). Another related thing here is the inability for users to get reasonable help from the UI (e.g., try to find out what this or that button/menu/whatever action actually does. It is what it is. Its strengths are not in the UI area. But its type-checking alone is worth using it, IMO. I have even suggested that the same or similar type-checking and other `defcustom' features be made available (for optional use) to `defvar'. Variables that are not user options can also benefit from type checking, :set triggers, etc.