From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thibaut Verron Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Introducing face in comments for various modes Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 13:17:23 +0100 Message-ID: <2aa0cf5a-c324-6b44-6247-6a20f0be3981@gmail.com> References: <9ZK1Solghrmps4AarUsz2E6-mAdkrTZoXPs4RTRTd9sZ0Cd8DGhK955im1kuug-EZXU3tc5rgDDd16vQexxpFnMvMFjFqnNnh0noashyLdE=@protonmail.com> <0RJB0bPRTMAqXlUbL2kGUvJtnCNPYwPhqTNi_l9nIpQAciTZYcYCikFVqi2Nr_UZLbT1_DRtX8G0dSkgI4jln5DTYBDxLz4i7L2d9wx-kA8=@protonmail.com> <21708ec2-d908-4e91-6c0a-4b1cd253e707@gmail.com> <009361a1-4430-ac3a-f395-ce32f10b31f2@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29108"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.4.2 Cc: Stefan Monnier , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Heime Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 12 13:18:01 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1p4hkv-0007LL-59 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 13:18:01 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p4hkQ-0002b6-4N; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 07:17:30 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p4hkO-0002aO-Hs for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 07:17:28 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x329.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::329]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p4hkM-0004R0-MT for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 07:17:28 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x329.google.com with SMTP id h8-20020a1c2108000000b003d1efd60b65so4989599wmh.0 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 04:17:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7YuaJ8Ox77daxJZl7qSazDq0q++Jig9b+KaZgJbeZME=; b=J7cwdhwMASRpV2pYX3rjylDD/zGGaumcqWGcV2RDG8NoNm3kRavoH6YO4QYr6Xq6G8 TYtjwUxTtUfuVWhgvbQIO97y3PP7BTFCj2XrMapq53orb6naMOAxET4MXlbeJoNjI1iP hpCYnnIdwynPlCELIw3xz8mEKAMGvuBK0zH9PxyVJKH5zLbvFFzzeVpEWcPKri2u9ysk S7E/gPEd3JxKogqC/jTdmblJVOzEzO1YDxnADq6oVxXD+LiL0gOmgps/aDvl+AGlWecO WwD/KmyFiNvL6E5keCE/lBMS9i7zxDTx47YnbQwm5BYQAsKhWRxWoz2wx0jBxLhyrECD pMLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7YuaJ8Ox77daxJZl7qSazDq0q++Jig9b+KaZgJbeZME=; b=7vmO/U/lkWFmJx5A0bbNegnciMO8D2s2qCGM/9e7INxtG/TLbVD7HP8zzG+1ibcKD0 e7Zfysc70LaMwJYcE9JdKqoIUBJDVLbiZWO+7c4Pvq3/CEKCgZ7xHVXtXnU5Xf3wrUVh 4EKEvvzqIqOcyMXrNN4oKvw5i19/HIauSIbdqIAcqCw1/KOQnPFT2MyvmmJMA2tKcYa1 ytYRQGVUMrIp3D2pLK2rF4/4zmEITe7GIvBZ2YqTdMZDaaw5cbZlqodVpd4L2Jok6i14 ZCf3NXjg4oXhhz20nVDkp5vRRWbR911fa6HtJdmxDqqh0no1rUgn7iPyYBktpkauycs4 Ussg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pnLMMxrA1ZtjgZluG6qmnaFnTn3Ko0TskxShVojsujLmo3IbKhx 1N05w0lPOIf3+Lcj3cDru48= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf5kegC7HdnyqvpvS8aa2IZM0SrrCLfzhYIdMZgjJR+h58IIy0u4EwTvwRoPjLYN5lb7zvJk0A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:1e8f:b0:3cf:f18b:327e with SMTP id be15-20020a05600c1e8f00b003cff18b327emr12445093wmb.4.1670847444822; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 04:17:24 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from ?IPV6:2001:628:2010:4094:29f:ef59:b326:7dad? ([2001:628:2010:4094:29f:ef59:b326:7dad]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m37-20020a05600c3b2500b003cfd4cf0761sm10145534wms.1.2022.12.12.04.17.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 12 Dec 2022 04:17:24 -0800 (PST) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::329; envelope-from=thibaut.verron@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x329.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:141673 Archived-At: On 12/12/2022 12:55, Heime wrote: > ------- Original Message ------- > On Monday, December 12th, 2022 at 10:50 AM, Thibaut Verron wrote: > > >> On 12/12/2022 11:20, Heime wrote: >> >>> ------- Original Message ------- >>> On Monday, December 12th, 2022 at 9:58 AM, Thibaut Verronthibaut.verron@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>> On 12/12/2022 10:21, Heime wrote: >>>> >>>>> ------- Original Message ------- >>>>> On Monday, December 12th, 2022 at 8:49 AM, Thibaut Verron >>>>> thibaut.verron@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Le lun. 12 déc. 2022 à 04:01, Heimeheimeborgia@protonmail.com a >>>>>> écrit : >>>>>> >>>>>> ------- Original Message ------- >>>>>> On Monday, December 12th, 2022 at 2:24 AM, Heime >>>>>> heimeborgia@protonmail.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The colors of the standard themes are chosen with its (light) >>>>>>> background in mind. If you change that background, it is not >>>>>>> surprising that things fall apart. >>>>>>> Choosing colours with a light background in mind is the wrong approach >>>>>>> because colours produce far greater visual >>>>>>> impact. >>>> There is no right or wrong approach, but individual preferences. >>>> Standard metrics exist. The Gnu Project like many others, does not >>>> want to use them. >> You're moving the goalpost: the sentence I quoted claimed that "focusing >> on a light background is the wrong approach". > Having worked with modus-themes, it was concluded that there exist greater > variations in possibilities with a dark background that with a light one. Great for themes with a black background. That doesn't make it "wrong" for a theme to have a light background. >> It's already bad enough now with some packages defining their own faces >> without at least inheriting from the standard ones. > Right. My focus has been to provide colours with good metrics so that > people inherit from the standard ones. That's called designing a theme. Aka the current approach. Which you have been arguing is wrong. > >> There are currently 5330 packages on Melpa. Do you plan to contact the >> authors of all of them individually to get them to implement your >> preferred colors? > To start using actual standards. Absolutely, they should learn more and change > their packages. Great. Good luck with that. On the other hand, the current recommended approach is to inherit from existing faces and let theme designers (or users, if they choose to) populate those with suitable colors. No need for package developers to implement standards, no need to learn about theme design, no need to change things to accommodate for user-preferred colors, and if you have a problem, only one bug report to file -- with the theme. >>>> You shouldn't think of themes as "fixing the default choices" >>>> (especially considering that you are the one "breaking" them by >>>> insisting to use them with a background they weren't designed for). >>>> Their purpose is to implement different choices in a consistent way. >>>> Good design in much more important that consistency. >> It's also much easier to achieve in a consistent system. > The argument is to design separately for light and also for dark background. > Emacs does have light and dark checks. > That's again, moving the point. Yes, Emacs does have those checks, but it's just a different way of providing two themes for light and dark backgrounds. If done for full themes, it's only a formal change, between two separate theme definitions, or one with interleaved conditionals. If done for only a subset of faces, leaving the others untouched, it's a poor-person's way to try to accommodate everything, but it's imperfect and it might be unreadable on themes which are far from the standard white or black (not to mention terminal users). For that use-case, it is usually preferred to find an existing face to inherit from, trusting the theme designers for this face to be rendered in a readable way.