From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: Icicles stealing keybindings Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 10:34:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2a986cd6-3755-49cb-a810-79a95c7790b4@default> References: <87y4pkekjg.fsf@wmi.amu.edu.pl> <5e049d36-c2fb-4fb3-a9a0-67b2dbd2d8ec@default> <87wq54dxhl.fsf@wmi.amu.edu.pl> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1420310071 28810 80.91.229.3 (3 Jan 2015 18:34:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 18:34:31 +0000 (UTC) To: Marcin Borkowski , Help Gnu Emacs mailing list Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 03 19:34:25 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y7TWp-00048u-NQ for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2015 19:34:23 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55041 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y7TWo-0008Fx-Rq for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2015 13:34:22 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45665) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y7TWc-0008Fs-Tp for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2015 13:34:12 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y7TWY-0000vz-Lc for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2015 13:34:10 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:21942) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y7TWY-0000vf-FC for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2015 13:34:06 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t03IY4Hr008853 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 3 Jan 2015 18:34:05 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t03IY3DP012212 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jan 2015 18:34:04 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0018.oracle.com (abhmp0018.oracle.com [141.146.116.24]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t03IY3Hh016278; Sat, 3 Jan 2015 18:34:03 GMT In-Reply-To: <87wq54dxhl.fsf@wmi.amu.edu.pl> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:101872 Archived-At: > > See the Icicles doc, section... (wait for it)... `Key Bindings'. >=20 > OK, understood. I'll do my homework next time. >=20 > Now the question is: where is the manual? I hit C-h i m Icicles RET > and nothing happens. I know of no other places to look for manuals... > (ESR would get heart attack.) Sorry, I have not written a TexInfo manual. The (`finder-mode') doc is available anytime in Icicle mode using `M-?' from the minibuffer. If you happen to have library `linkd.el' installed then this doc is hyperlinked. You can also consult it in files `icicles-doc[12].el'. And you can (normally) also consult it on Emacs Wiki, at http://www.emacswiki.org/Icicles. I am told now that the wiki should be back up soon - it has been down for maintenance for almost a month. > Now, kidding aside: I use EmacsWiki as "the docs"; is there any > better (e.g., offline) place? (What you write below is not > necessarily better for me, though I can live with it.) "Better" is in the eye of the beholder. ;-) The doc on Emacs Wiki is pretty clear, I think. It has the advantages of showing images and being linked to other pages of the wiki. Reading the doc in Emacs has its own advantages, however, which I'm sure you're aware of. > What would be great for me would be e.g. the docs in epub/mobi > format, or at least a HTML file or a set of files, so that I can > put it on my kindle and read while commuting. (In a pinch, a PDF > would do, too.) Sorry; someone other than I will need to provide that. That should not be a big deal to implement, but I won't be the one to do it. Perhaps you will someday be able to browse the Wiki with your Kindle. > > Hit `M-?' from the minibuffer, then click the link `[Icicles Doc, > > Part 2]'. If Emacs Wiki were not down currently then I would > > point you also to http://www.emacswiki.org/Icicles_-_Key_Bindings > > (I think that's the URL). >=20 > Wow. I did what you wrote here, and found myself in a strange place > called *Finder-package*. I did C-h m, then jumped to the source > file for that strange mode (C-h m told me that it was about package > docs) and found out, that it was written by ESR himself. I don't > know what to make of it now... `finder.el' is quite old. It is possible that only I use it for doc. Among other things, it presents the `Commentary' section of a file in a form that is easy to read and navigate. I put the full doc in=20 `Commentary', so you have it available as part of the source code. The ability to use `finder-mode' with it comes for free. The `finder'-accessed doc of some of my libraries, such as Icicles and Bookmark+, also provides for navigation using simple hyperlinks provided by library `linkd.el', if you happen to have that installed. > > It is trivial to remove that binding for Icicles or to assign a > > different binding. Again: option `icicle-top-level-key-bindings'. >=20 > Great, I didn't know about this option. >=20 > > You don't have to reinvent anything. You just need to decide > > what works for you. Different people use different libraries > > that might lead to different key conflicts. And different > > people have different preferences wrt keys. It's up to you > > what bindings you use. >=20 > Obviously. I just thought someone had some experience. There are > bad keybindings, good ones and better ones. I didn't want to use > inferior ones. And Icicles is so huge, I even don't know exactly > what I need (since I don't know what's out there). You can start with the default Icicles keybindings. A fair amount of thought and experience are behind them. In general they do not trample on existing key bindings. (Binding `C-x SPC' is an exception, now that it has been appropriated for vanilla Emacs.) But everyone's needs and preferences are different, so you might well want to change some of the default bindings. I think it is better to start from the defaults than to start from zero (e.g., `icicle-top-level-key-bindings' =3D ()), but it's certainly possible to feel that doing that makes Icicles too alien or intrusive. > > Sorry for your trouble. Please spend a few minutes with > > `Key Bindings' in the doc, and I think you might feel better. >=20 > It's not you who should be sorry. (Though I miss an Info manual, > frankly speaking. They are so good. It's not that they are old and > bad and browsers are new and good. It's that browsers are not yet at > this technological level as the Info reader. ;-)) FWIW, I agree. Info can be improved, of course, and there is talk now in emacs-devel@gnu.org of trying to do so (make it more usable in connection with proportional fonts, make it usable by typical web browsers, etc.). If you can, and you would like to, help with that incipient effort, everyone would appreciate it. [Normally, I would just point you to the email thread about this for emacs-devel@gnu.org. Unfortunately, this discussion has been going on since 2014-12-05, and has ranged far afield. The original thread has branched a few times, and even when it has not branched it has wandered all around Robinson's barn. Anyway, if you are interested, this is the starting point of the discussion: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-12/msg00347.html And this is the latest message, as of today: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-01/msg00025.html] But the thing that is most important for the Emacs docs (and for any doc) is the *content* - complete & correct (but also readable, of course). There too, there is always room for improvement. Fortunately, throughout its long history Emacs has had the benefit of a few people who took doc seriously. Starting with Emacs (the "self-documenting editor") itself. (Is Emacs a person?) And RMS. And Eli Zaretskii. Young blood is sorely needed for this too - not because the old farts are wrong or out-of-date or doing a poor job, but because no one hangs in there forever. (There is now a long list of outstanding doc bugs.) To "get" Emacs is to understand the usefulness and power of a program that communicates with you about itself, that opens itself freely and completely. It includes understanding the importance software freedom and of, yup, doc. It is no accident that Emacs was the *starting point* and remains at the core of the "free" approach to using and developing software. And it is no accident that RMS concentrated so much of his energy on its ability to talk to you about itself - its doc, in particular.