From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alexandre Garreau Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs i18n Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 08:32:14 +0200 Message-ID: <2876582.IAzHZAExPz@galex-713.eu> References: <87czrcdysr.fsf@zoho.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="39715"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 21 09:31:47 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m66hn-000AD3-Pj for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 09:31:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58170 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m66hm-0003gs-Rr for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 03:31:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50916) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m66hJ-0003ga-Vj for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 03:31:17 -0400 Original-Received: from portable.galex-713.eu ([2a00:5884:8305::1]:33750 helo=galex-713.eu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m66hH-0004Gr-KF for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 03:31:17 -0400 Original-Received: from gal by galex-713.eu with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m65mA-00023X-IF for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 08:32:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87czrcdysr.fsf@zoho.eu> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:5884:8305::1; envelope-from=galex-713@galex-713.eu; helo=galex-713.eu X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:131924 Archived-At: Le mercredi 21 juillet 2021, 07:24:36 CEST Emanuel Berg via Users list for= =20 the GNU Emacs text editor a =C3=A9crit : > Thibaut Verron wrote: > >> Anglo-American beat French to world dominance, accept it. > >> It happened everywhere, including diplomacy, > >=20 > > Don't diplomats have interprets? >=20 > They used to speak French, now they speak English. >=20 > We see traces of this in for example the Euro Vision Song > Contest where they tell the score in English and French. you are trying to demonstrate english is the most dominant language,=20 *that* is embarrassing: why are you trying to demonstrate the obvious=20 while everybody already agrees? it would be as embarassing as someone=20 trying to demonstrate very hard that north america + europe is more=20 powerful than the rest of the globe combined=E2=80=A6 okay, so what? is the= re any=20 pride in it? nobody even *questioned* it here. > Please, just deal with it and go on, this is so embarrassing > every time it comes up :( you are not the final authority on what is supposed to be embarrassing u.u > > You've clearly never been to France. :) >=20 > I've been to France, I've been to Belgium, I've met French and > Belgian programmers, French and Belgian students, French and > Belgian activists [1] (that has nothing to do with computers, > even), they _all_ speak very good English! Just like you two > guys do! you=E2=80=99ve been mostly with educated people, not with people who strugg= le=20 learning, or are in less educated portion of society. but you could ignore them in two ways: saying =E2=80=9Cenough people know a= bout=20 computer science, we don=E2=80=99t need more=E2=80=9D (many people will dis= agree), and=20 saying =E2=80=9Cemacs is only for programmers=E2=80=9D (same=E2=80=A6). Bu= t this is getting=20 repetitive, you are purposedly avoiding relevant arguments u.u > > More seriously, a lot of people in China and Japan, > > including in the software industry, do not speak English. >=20 > Wrong! They do, and they do even more and better for each > year, and the very small group who don't, no really try going to these places, most of people really don=E2=80=99t. = it=E2=80=99s=20 logical you=E2=80=99ve been to europe, but there is even worse. Actually, try even to go to eastern europe: the situation is =E2=80=9Cbette= r=E2=80=9D than=20 in eastern asia, but still a looooot =E2=80=9Cworse=E2=80=9D than rest of e= urope. > well, they have > a HUGE problem that should be fixed by them putting ALL their > efforts learning English as soon as possible - it is > *impossible* to be a tech/science person 2021 and not knowing > English it seems to me both of you are mixing two different matters: tech/science=20 people and general people. general people most often don=E2=80=99t master = english=20 as good as us, and of course the situation is better for english in tech/ science. now I know I=E2=80=99m not the only one who believe it=E2=80=99s not bad th= at it=E2=80=99s=20 possible to do science/tech without english. I mean people in the=20 influence spheres of china and russia do that commonly. and yet I=E2=80=99= m for=20 globalization, but this is some sort of dogmatism that seems weird to me=E2= =80=A6=20 why imposing stuff to people? if something is so important, the compressed= =20 version of it will eventually be translated to english and reach the wider= =20 world anyway=E2=80=A6 > - luckily, this isn't the case, but if there were more > people like you translating stuff not even then could you > ever, ever do it to any extent that would mean a positive to > those very few who don't know English, it would be a NEGATIVE > since they would only have access to a small fraction of the > material available, a fraction that would not have been available before, I don=E2=80=99t see h= ow=20 that=E2=80=99s negative > Luckily this isn't the case at all - French tech people and > French people in general have no problem whatsoever mastering > English, of course we don=E2=80=99t, 75% of your vocabulary comes from our language,= the=20 only issue is when you need to speak it aloud=E2=80=A6 once you become flue= nt at=20 it, you just resign to your eternal inferiority at not being able to=20 distinguish 22 different vowels (and french is not really better with 17=20 vowels among whose 4 nasals), added to the common stress, insecurity and=20 other psychological issues that are really common among frenches about=20 languages in general > they want to do it, they benefit from it, everyone > else benefit from it, and most of all, it is the REALITY that > we have that everyone needs to accept for their own benefit! so it is=E2=80=A6 so why do you need to claim it so loud and verbosely? I= =E2=80=99d really=20 like to know, I=E2=80=99ve never observed that reaction yet Is it that you are particularely afraid about translation? does it sound=20 like something obscurantist to you? > > And all over the world, a lot of students who do not feel > > confident with English treat the lack of available > > translations as a significant hurdle, or even a barrier. >=20 > 100% incorrect. how do you know? I mean yet asserting something may need a little proof=E2= =80=A6=20 denying it (as the existence of anything) would need a lot more than that:= =20 how can you be so assertive about it? > > Your replies in this thread strike me as unusually hostile. > > Why is it such a big problem that some want to translate the > > emacs help and manual? >=20 > Yes, because I've heard this so many times before, all the > incorrect arguments, and it is bit provoking that it is ALWAYS > the French who brings this up no matter what e-mail list or > what tent on G8 in Rostock you are on! Every meeting, start > with a vote which the French guys insist on (despite speaking > English), French people propose French as the language (what > a surprise) and then get voted down 21-4, 14-3, 45-11 > every time. this is really hillarous (I=E2=80=99ve heard it so many times but never saw= it=20 myself yet), it recalls me some really hillarous excerpt from some czeck=20 writer, Kundera. > Why aren't the Russian, German and so on people who are also > part of huge language and language groups making this "French > case" you think? why german? I would have said russian and mandarin and spanish. especially russian actually. actually it happens, but around russia. it=E2=80=99s weird it happens more often for russian than spanish, while sp= anish=20 is considered easier, and simpler to speak. > Can it be that they are a bit more modest with respect to > their own language? Or do they simply understand like everyone > else what a huge benefit it is to them _and everyone_ with > a common langauge for science and technology, there always have been a common language, don=E2=80=99t worry, be it greek,= latin,=20 english, there always will be one, that=E2=80=99s natural, there=E2=80=99s = nothing to be=20 afraid about. > Which, BTW, is exactly like the French are, so why on Earth > keep up with this charade? good question, do you think they=E2=80=99re aren=E2=80=99t the same french?= what are the=20 sociological differences you noticed between each groups?