Special Characters on Mac Emacs

Special Characters on Mac Emacs

[Ulrich Hobelmann]

Okay, let me wrap up how things work out for me:

(set-keyboard-coding-system 'mac-roman)

seems to be an easy way to make Emacs behave like one would expect it 
to: all special combinations (umlauts, euro symbol, accents) work.

To make Emacs display the stuff the following works:

(create-fontset-from-fontset-spec

"-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--12-*-*-*-*-*-fontset-monaco,
         ascii:-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-120-mac-roman,
         mule-unicode-0100-24ff:-apple-lucida 
grande-medium-r-normal--0-0-75-75-m-0-mac-roman,
         mule-unicode-2500-33ff:-apple-bitstream vera sans mono 
bold-medium-r-normal--0-0-75-75-m-0-mac-roman,
 
latin-iso8859-15:-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-120-mac-roman,
 
latin-iso8859-1:-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-120-mac-roman"
)

(set-face-font
  'default "-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--12-*-*-*-*-*-fontset-monaco")

It seems, however, that Emacs really only uses the first (ascii) part, 
so I tried changing it to:

(create-fontset-from-fontset-spec

"-apple-Bitstream Vera Sans 
Mono-regular-r-normal--13-*-*-*-*-*-fontset-monaco,
         ascii:-apple-Bitstream Vera Sans 
Mono-regular-r-normal--13-140-75-75-m-120-mac-roman,
         mule-unicode-0100-24ff:-apple-lucida 
grande-medium-r-normal--0-0-75-75-m-0-mac-roman,
         mule-unicode-2500-33ff:-apple-bitstream vera sans mono 
bold-medium-r-normal--0-0-75-75-m-0-mac-roman,
 
latin-iso8859-15:-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-120-mac-roman,
 
latin-iso8859-1:-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-120-mac-roman"
)

Interestingly now Emacs explodes into the debugger and claims that no 
font matches.  For some reason the very same font works fine with:

(set-face-font 'default "-apple-Bitstream Vera Sans 
Mono-regular-r-normal--13-140-75-75-m-120-mac-roman").  Only then the 
special characters don't display correctly.

What is it that makes Emacs find the font in one instance and not in the 
  other?  And what makes Emacs accept the fontset containing a Monaco 
with mac-roman encoding(!) but display special characters, while loading 
the Bitstream font (also with mac-roman encoding) can't display special 
characters?

The emacs info pages can't really help me.  I don't really understand 
what all those characters and numbers in a fontset stand for...  But 
this doesn't change the fact that emacs doesn't even find my font to 
include it in the fontset.

Regards, Ulrich

Re: Special Characters on Mac Emacs

[Stefan Monnier]

Discussion of development versions of Emacs, as explained in INSTALL.CVS
should take place in emacs-devel or emacs-pretest-bug so that problems may
have a chance of getting fixed before the release.

Please,


        Stefan


>>>>> "Ulrich" == Ulrich Hobelmann <u.hobelmann@web.de> writes:

> Okay, let me wrap up how things work out for me:

> (set-keyboard-coding-system 'mac-roman)

> seems to be an easy way to make Emacs behave like one would expect it to:
> all special combinations (umlauts, euro symbol, accents) work.

> To make Emacs display the stuff the following works:

> (create-fontset-from-fontset-spec

> "-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--12-*-*-*-*-*-fontset-monaco,
>          ascii:-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-120-mac-roman,
>          mule-unicode-0100-24ff:-apple-lucida
>          grande-medium-r-normal--0-0-75-75-m-0-mac-roman,
>          mule-unicode-2500-33ff:-apple-bitstream vera sans mono
>          bold-medium-r-normal--0-0-75-75-m-0-mac-roman,
>  latin-iso8859-15:-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-120-mac-roman,
>  latin-iso8859-1:-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-120-mac-roman"
> )

> (set-face-font
>   'default "-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--12-*-*-*-*-*-fontset-monaco")

> It seems, however, that Emacs really only uses the first (ascii) part, so
> I tried changing it to:

> (create-fontset-from-fontset-spec

> "-apple-Bitstream Vera Sans
> Mono-regular-r-normal--13-*-*-*-*-*-fontset-monaco,
>          ascii:-apple-Bitstream Vera Sans
>          Mono-regular-r-normal--13-140-75-75-m-120-mac-roman,
>          mule-unicode-0100-24ff:-apple-lucida
>          grande-medium-r-normal--0-0-75-75-m-0-mac-roman,
>          mule-unicode-2500-33ff:-apple-bitstream vera sans mono
>          bold-medium-r-normal--0-0-75-75-m-0-mac-roman,
>  latin-iso8859-15:-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-120-mac-roman,
>  latin-iso8859-1:-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-120-mac-roman"
> )

> Interestingly now Emacs explodes into the debugger and claims that no font
> matches.  For some reason the very same font works fine with:

> (set-face-font 'default "-apple-Bitstream Vera Sans
> Mono-regular-r-normal--13-140-75-75-m-120-mac-roman").  Only then the
> special characters don't display correctly.

> What is it that makes Emacs find the font in one instance and not in the
> other?  And what makes Emacs accept the fontset containing a Monaco with
> mac-roman encoding(!) but display special characters, while loading the
> Bitstream font (also with mac-roman encoding) can't display
> special characters?

> The emacs info pages can't really help me.  I don't really understand what
> all those characters and numbers in a fontset stand for...  But this doesn't
> change the fact that emacs doesn't even find my font to include it in
> the fontset.

> Regards, Ulrich

Re: Special Characters on Mac Emacs

[Ulrich Hobelmann]

Stefan Monnier wrote:
> Discussion of development versions of Emacs, as explained in INSTALL.CVS
> should take place in emacs-devel or emacs-pretest-bug so that problems may
> have a chance of getting fixed before the release.
> 
> Please,
> 
> 
>         Stefan

Is there also a newsgroup for that?  There's nothing more annoying than 
cluttering my mailbox with stuff and un/subscribing to all kinds of 
mailing lists.

In general, I already reported the "font problem" as a bug, so the 
dev-team should be informed by now that people have problems in that area.

Re: Special Characters on Mac Emacs

[Sébastien Kirche]

Le 10 Mar 2005, Ulrich Hobelmann a dit :

> Is there also a newsgroup for that?  There's nothing more annoying
> than cluttering my mailbox with stuff and un/subscribing to all kinds
> of mailing lists.

With the  news.gmane.org gateway (managed by Lars  Magne Ingebrigtsen author
of Gnus) you  can subscribe to a newsgroup that is  bound to the emacs-devel
mailing list.

Actually many other mailing lists are available that way.

You can  read with no  limitation, but posting  needs to use either  a valid
from: or  a valid reply-to:  header as the  gataway send a mail  request the
first time you post into a group.

HTH.

-- 
Sébastien Kirche

Re: Special Characters on Mac Emacs

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 10.03.2005 um 05:22 schrieb Stefan Monnier:

> Discussion of development versions of Emacs

I don't think that this fonts issue is a discussion on that. Handling 
of fonts and fontsets and scripts is too complicated and too imperfect 
although mule is about ten years old. And although from invoking 
configure it is known on which platform and in which (language and 
script) environment this GNU Emacs will run nothing is done to put it 
as a grown-up and ready to use application into this field. You have to 
spend hours and years until something sufficient is at your finger tips 
-- at least outside northern america. And this is quite a wide area ...

I would like to donate my font and fontset files and other settings as 
components/add-ons/examples of stable versions of GNU Emacs and of 
those still in development! I'll have to write some comments, add URLs 
to fetch the fonts, include photographs of the HELLO buffer, test that 
it all works ...

--
Greetings

   Pete

Re: Special Characters on Mac Emacs

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Discussion of development versions of Emacs
> I don't think that this fonts issue is a discussion on that.

Of course it is.  The Carbon Emacs code is a development version of Emacs.
If he keeps his discussion here, at best he'll end up with some workaround
in his .emacs and the next upcoming release will still require other people
to use the same workaround.  A development version, contrary to a released
version, is a malleable thing where problems can be fixed rather than
worked around.

There doesn't seem to be any good reason why a user should do anything
special under Carbon Emacs to use the mac-roman encoding/fonts if it's the
default in the system.  So maybe the defaults under Carbon Emacs should be
changed accordingly.


        Stefan

Re: Special Characters on Mac Emacs

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 10.03.2005 um 14:39 schrieb Stefan Monnier:

> The Carbon Emacs code is a development version of Emacs.
> If he keeps his discussion here, at best he'll end up with some 
> workaround
> in his .emacs and the next upcoming release will still require other 
> people
> to use the same workaround.

Yes, you're write, the situation needs improvement and therefore 
bug-reports need to be filed. There too a useful discussion forum is 
needed. Emacs-pretest-bug is not suitable for that. What's left for 
discussion of work-arounds etc?

List Post: <mailto:macosx-emacs@email.esm.psu.edu>
List Archives: <http://www.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/MacOSX-Emacs-Digests/>

--
Greetings

   Pete

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night, but set a man on fire 
and he'll  be warm for the rest of his life.

Re: Special Characters on Mac Emacs

[Stefan Monnier]

>> The Carbon Emacs code is a development version of Emacs.  If he keeps his
>> discussion here, at best he'll end up with some workaround in his .emacs
>> and the next upcoming release will still require other people to use the
>> same workaround.

> Yes, you're write, the situation needs improvement and therefore bug-reports
> need to be filed.  There too a useful discussion forum is
> needed. Emacs-pretest-bug is not suitable for that.  What's left for
> discussion of work-arounds etc?

INSTALL.CVS suggests emacs-devel.


        Stefan

Re: Special Characters on Mac Emacs

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 10.03.2005 um 15:50 schrieb Stefan Monnier:

> INSTALL.CVS suggests emacs-devel.

Isn't this about *development*, i.e. avoiding work-arounds, and not 
about getting some help, including work-arounds?

--
Greetings

   Pete

Re: Special Characters on Mac Emacs

[Stefan Monnier]

>> INSTALL.CVS suggests emacs-devel.

> Isn't this about *development*, i.e. avoiding work-arounds, and not about
> getting some help, including work-arounds?

Two possibilities:

- it's a problem that has never showed up on emacs-devel: it might be a bug
  or misfeature that needs to be fixed: post it on emacs-devel.
  In return you'll either get a fix, a workaround (if it is decided that
  it's not a bug or that the bug can't be fixed right away), or be ignored.
  Hopefully the "ignored" case is rare.

- the problem has already been mentioned on emacs-devel: check the archive.

What else do you want?


        Stefan

Re: Special Characters on Mac Emacs

[Ulrich Hobelmann]

Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>Yes, you're write, the situation needs improvement and therefore bug-reports
>>need to be filed.  There too a useful discussion forum is
>>needed. Emacs-pretest-bug is not suitable for that.  What's left for
>>discussion of work-arounds etc?
> 
> 
> INSTALL.CVS suggests emacs-devel.

I posted to emacs-devel (over the gmane.org gateway; thanks Sébastian!).

Re: Special Characters on Mac Emacs

[Ulrich Hobelmann]

Peter Dyballa wrote:
> 
> Am 10.03.2005 um 15:50 schrieb Stefan Monnier:
> 
>> INSTALL.CVS suggests emacs-devel.
> 
> 
> Isn't this about *development*, i.e. avoiding work-arounds, and not 
> about getting some help, including work-arounds?
> 

Well, we might hope the dev-people will take inspiration and think over 
the font-system :)

Anyway, I'll keep writing my text files in TextEdit; Emacs is for Lisp, 
and there I don't need lots of foreign characters.

Re: Special Characters on Mac Emacs

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes:

> Isn't this about *development*, i.e. avoiding work-arounds, and not
> about getting some help, including work-arounds?

the best work-around is the one understood enough so that it becomes
unnecesary, but that only happens if the control graph has a back edge.
generally, to help the most, you try to help the earliest.  you are not
stuck in some proprietary software hell where earliest is artificially
bounded.  when you understand this, you may may come to consider that
*everything* (impermanent ;-) is about "development", although it is
known by many other names as well.

thi