From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alexandre Garreau Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Verticality and future of display engine and lines (bis) [Was: Re: RTL lines] Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 16:40:39 +0200 Message-ID: <2064171.8mjGoO9ylG@galex-713.eu> References: <3519414.WYFCpekPd3@galex-713.eu> <9299581.M7KuVC2vgW@galex-713.eu> <83k0hxtscx.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17579"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 28 16:41:56 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mg6bK-0004Lc-Bz for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 16:41:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42726 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mg6bI-0003YT-D6 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 10:41:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60908) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mg6aF-0003QK-1S for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 10:40:47 -0400 Original-Received: from portable.galex-713.eu ([2a00:5884:8305::1]:47822 helo=galex-713.eu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mg6aC-0007wq-H2; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 10:40:46 -0400 Original-Received: from gal by galex-713.eu with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mg6a7-0001YU-TC; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 16:40:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83k0hxtscx.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:5884:8305::1; envelope-from=galex-713@galex-713.eu; helo=galex-713.eu X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:134260 Archived-At: Le jeudi 28 octobre 2021, 11:23:58 CEST Eli Zaretskii a =C3=A9crit : > > From: Alexandre Garreau > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii > > Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 09:12:38 +0200 > >=20 > > > I guess you are unaware, or perhaps forgot, that the display engine > > > itself scrolls the window when it finds that necessary. > >=20 > > oh=E2=80=A6 but still that=E2=80=99s a few functions right=E2=80=A6? I = hope=E2=80=A6 like =E2=80=9Cscroll > > down=E2=80=9D > > and =E2=80=9Cscroll up=E2=80=9D calls that should be conditionally chan= ged to =E2=80=9Cscroll > > forward=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cscroll backward=E2=80=9D >=20 > I guess you think that scrolling, in whatever direction, is a simple > business. It isn't; what those "few functions" do has a lot of > implicit assumptions, most of them will be wrong with the change of > direction. Someone(TM) will have to come up with the necessary logic > that doesn't exist, and make it support all the scroll-related > features we have, like scroll-step, scroll-conservatively, > scroll-up/down-aggressively, scroll-preserve-screen-position, etc. > And then the low-level code which scrolls the screen by moving pixels > will have to be rethought as well. >=20 > > > > Did you really look at the screenshots? don=E2=80=99t you see all t= he > > > > blank > > > > between the lines? > > >=20 > > > I'm talking about what I see in my Emacs session where I read your > > > email. If any Emacs session displays that as you describe, that's > > > either a font configuration problem or some rendering bug that isn't > > > present in my build of Emacs. > >=20 > > But did you look at the screenshots? doesn=E2=80=99t your gnus support = simple > > and direct display of mime attachments? >=20 > (I don't use Gnus.) Sorry, in the absence of user-agent I wrongly assumed. > Of course, I looked at them. Why do you ask? > they look like display bugs to me, as I said. Oh ok I wanted to be sure, because I wasn=E2=80=99t (since to me it didn=E2= =80=99t), now=20 I=E2=80=99m sure they can look like bugs. But about the mongolian script (you looked at that screenshot too right?),= =20 how would you imagine it to be displayed, ideally? did what firefox did=20 look like a display bug too, to you? > > > and I'm not even sure I understand why would you like to > > > do something like that. > >=20 > > I already said it was to make reading more comfortable without having > > to lump from one part of the text to another, read, and yet again go > > there to resume reading, so the direction of reading is always > > consistent (and ideally to have even less jumping, one would need to > > use boustrophedon as a script direction, but afaik no existing > > software supports that) > I cannot imagine it will be easy to read an RTL text that wasn't > reordered for display. You'd have to read it one character at a time, > something that is extremely slow. Oh yes indeed because when we learn to learn fast we learn to recognize=20 words instead of characters. But I guess you can get used to that (and somewhat faster than learning=20 each word twice), otherwise boustrophedon wouldn=E2=80=99t have been a prac= tical=20 script direction to be used at first with many scripts (for instance greek= =20 and other more ancient scripts, at times where the direction of writing of= =20 occidental languages wasn=E2=80=99t fixed yet). Supporting that, I actually can read latin mirrored, because I initially=20 learnt to write in that sense (now I=E2=80=99m much slower at that than wit= h=20 normal writing, because I=E2=80=99ve come to read a lot more than to write,= but it=20 may be that in a couple decades I=E2=80=99ve growed faster at reading that = sense),=20 and I wouldn=E2=80=99t mind getting again more accustomed to it. But I gue= ss as=20 that can=E2=80=99t be done efficiently in elisp, emacs is not made for that= , since=20 that=E2=80=99s no more than an esoteric usecase (we could also argue about = the=20 esoterism of the inclusion of many extinct scripts in unicode, and that=20 they shouldn=E2=80=99t be supported (although ancient boustrophedonian gree= k=20 script is not included, while it=E2=80=99s more recent than certain extinct= =20 ancient scripts that are included))