From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Quote by Knuth Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 09:07:07 +0200 Message-ID: <20210719070707.GA2832@tuxteam.de> References: <20210705154121.GB6395@tuxteam.de> <878s2j2onn.fsf@zoho.eu> <87r1gbdr6d.fsf@zoho.eu> <877dhsfrxs.fsf@zoho.eu> <87eebv6zid.fsf@zoho.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34149"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 19 09:08:07 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m5NNm-0008gQ-NS for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 09:08:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51058 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5NNl-00082D-Oh for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 03:08:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39534) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5NN5-000824-2z for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 03:07:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:44736) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5NMz-0000yb-3L for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 03:07:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:To:Date; bh=v4KqmYSNjbxR0RCJVwvgb2Is9DMGJ5Qh2fIGsU9xlPU=; b=LtM3fOiSFL27Qx1WG6zprEZu337uMkVFDlsH9cn9icO69dZz3aaXTA3MiZeMRQNquHgmNr7kpb9N0jG8r+Ana33NfkKmbZuPA3Ps/jHIwngVQI6XH5y6mZtwihWg7mWm/OMYPYmT7VWFqNuUGhC65nhsNW67LecPjIugQWqk96GpftVPj95krBYRr3E7Lmn9xLHDG+UVKR7mhnG9E7JgxhGtEB3rMyjkwQ1UBcGE6jlT7shvWbJ6vUuXcgtgDkdbGO6SVHYyOmpE9MBRik1tr/5yme01Tp7YAaTo2AM79liGnnVE30xGix1QDwCG7bMQaNgZWRn0L0FLLV2ZsFBinA==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1m5NMp-0000tu-Le for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 09:07:07 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87eebv6zid.fsf@zoho.eu> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:131854 Archived-At: --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 12:14:18AM +0200, Emanuel Berg via Users list for t= he GNU Emacs text editor wrote: > Christopher Dimech wrote: >=20 > > Literate programming is an enhanced macro substitution > > package tuned to the task of rearranging source code. >=20 > We know what a macro is but what is literate programming > except it relies on macros? Does it rely to macros MORE than > everyday programming, including programming that uses macros, > or are the macros CLOSER to natural languages, maybe? This discussion is so full of category errors that it's difficult to say anything relevant anymore. Let me pick two senses for the term "literate programming": "Literate programming" is a pretty generic term. The most you can say about it is that it tries to combine "writing for humans" ("literature") and "writing for machines" ("programming"). Talking about macros in this context would be a category error [0] like saying "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously". "Literate programming" as coined by Knuth (no, Mr. Dimech, you probably won't be interested -- for me, you can't overstate Knuth too much) is /technically/ based on WEB, which is a text substitution system, so can be regarded as a macro [1] system. If you look closely, TeX [2] and METAFONT [3] are "text substitution systems" a.k.a. macro [4] expanders. It was the rage among some computer scientists of that time (1980s), and Donald Knuth seems to have been interested in them back then. So yes, in the second, strict, sense macros do play a role. By the way, and to try to put things on-topic (hope? HAH!), noweb is also a text expansion machinery, inspired... yes, on Knuth's WEB. Go figure. Cheers [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_error [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WEB [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TeX [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAFONT - tom=C3=A1s --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAmD1JJsACgkQBcgs9XrR2kbOsgCeKfVa0rycOCzcutSj1FWt5QZ3 4XsAnRL9Jhm/OmVcHFv3b+pXcW+P58X3 =5W9t -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy--