From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: On the rate of change [was: Another Emacs incompatibilty] Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:12:32 +0200 Message-ID: <20200817081232.GA13459@tuxteam.de> References: <86r1s648dc.fsf@shell.gmplib.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3825"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 17 10:13:13 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1k7aGX-0000tz-Ch for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:13:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46304 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k7aGW-0003CO-Ds for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 04:13:12 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36104) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k7aG5-0003CE-Dr for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 04:12:45 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:43814) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k7aG2-0000PA-QT for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 04:12:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:To:Date; bh=TmhFR6kFxjYpf6dylmt0NLv67PdIX4DIBdRuWC0avMs=; b=iv4zAvU41ZiHiK6rfqp8DyUQbOZr8VzIIRfSpJIGwRUSEV6/9cYjz6TGZ3fzbr66XXf+2MHXvMiizaidDcp1WvuR0x//O3gEgOf/LhQ5I6PmbrZKhecsSJjRyB/a+9F2K34ipwYbF6rUVYOVWrOMK1UfGoH/rZ5xqWd3ImHkY73oCE9iCN64bk2VXCcwdp/Kn94MGzhQ1lE/hf7qrhERNCvGWbFFs7bMUmjLHcF7sH2pFOGd9O+GGI7p8sRrJNDGa9fO+rHXwRhbsCE7cBrhRQ+8qA49g+3LliKanrMObRpi+5fFCr1jSXkTIk5EiuE3Cz/g9+Y4qy/VVyDDxUePwg==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1k7aFs-0003iC-HM for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:12:32 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86r1s648dc.fsf@shell.gmplib.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/08/17 04:12:34 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:123679 Archived-At: --/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:57:03PM +0200, Torbj=C3=B6rn Granlund wrote: [...] > What does this have to do with emacs? Well, each emacs release changes > things to make much of what we long term users have gotten accustomed to > invalid [...] It's a very difficult balance to hit for a bigger "software project" (and by this seemingly innocuous phrase I encompass the whole thing around it: design, uses, developers and their dreams, users and their needs, culture, haters, detractors, the whole kaboodle). It doesn't move, and then it's dead (heck even /bin/ls had to take ACLs into account at some point and SELinux at another). It does move too much, and then people flee in all directions (remember Jamie Zawinski's CADT [1]?). The really, really hard part in it is that there's no "just right" rate of change. Emacs (the project, the whole kaboodle) just happens to hit my sweet spot squarely. It doesn't seem to be the case for you. It moves too fast. Have a look at the mailing list and you'll see as many people desperate because it doesn't move fast enough (just a month ago we had a monster thread on this ML, I think). I have seen so much grief caused (basically) by this kind of tension. Any ideas on how to tackle that? Cheers [1] https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html -- t --/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAl86O/AACgkQBcgs9XrR2kaHtQCfVEtoR/ijbW/LWoHClx4dg4+S mrsAnisyVBm37AalkmeSaDopOhPs90mn =zLZJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb--