From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Is Elisp really that slow? Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 07:52:02 +0200 Message-ID: <20190517055202.ted62gt6hqcip7xt@Ergus> References: <878sv7sp3r.fsf@telefonica.net> <83r28z8zl9.fsf@gnu.org> <20190515210924.sijzy6mnpgzkt4gm@Ergus> <83ftpecwu1.fsf@gnu.org> <20190516161408.4dov3dwk5h4yoizn@Ergus> <838sv6cmwt.fsf@gnu.org> <20190516202327.5cgy2s4kppy3ahxa@Ergus> <871s0yqg2i.fsf@telefonica.net> <3210C8E9-7A74-47D6-81A0-470948E6D09C@gmail.com> <87r28xq0j1.fsf@telefonica.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="55583"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?B?w5NzY2Fy?= Fuentes Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri May 17 07:52:27 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hRVn8-000EJO-E6 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 May 2019 07:52:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42804 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRVn7-0000RT-FR for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 May 2019 01:52:25 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:38486) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRVmw-0000RK-3D for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 May 2019 01:52:15 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRVmu-0003Ye-PV for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 May 2019 01:52:14 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic303-1.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.131.40]:39993) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRVmu-0003Xa-E3 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 May 2019 01:52:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1558072331; bh=oQ+Qo7q7Em6cuM+y/Q3ua3Mz+zpxu2AEnjz54zvJfa8=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=KOl+ZQnI4wwZSOJVyso9GmKSOVXnHhWjTxPgBSGzZqZ4wCU7gRWckvP8FSdaWt1B9IebdwEQ1Wb+6Wxxkt2ifaHBAS8Uquh2GRJqS7EMcnxMA6iAa8aHwC55GNcJlD8+ZoglFvdz4RFBhOtPZRzxog0yiMvI5JBp0vQHCV5DLafg14vYzdjFPl80zqM5CZHR8HkILXzygcAlshgS5BJUdgAfYrsk4HY7svqps1oDfByiJ2hjd74ujzd59yWGyfpsCukbzsAm98ByDKoBP+tlohDkw2pwwtYIZt3388OYqVS2oNWrAizYuXBiunmf2MTbszuglWIKH6mtcypR0tL/6Q== X-YMail-OSG: BK4uDmMVM1l7KXkxEj1Xk2COL9ctoyoRci3bgkBJVEz6XkCE4hrR9PyJNFCb7c7 BhCHxph393J22MGDr_7qv8Eap0nyfo5vuPUUO8UaQceZEUY919dylATzAM0ZnIMCZk7rqxYq2Ze. jR4wVkAdUZunASNMQ_h8tJ4zEADBh_GhmRaJSZz0Q9NBdgXquQVEXNPLvIIJTqnMZquzC3flhWKY EvflDAi0_1pkWrgmUuBefwIHA8jx87qrbzOrJLcSklk6cwMPOzFAvEYlEpHNOcXab.lbf_Q8Hf2D KX0G7gBFqaRcV4Mj1it5BY7MMYP5v7nCkQI7t9xciRlnrmj9YG5cCsmMGM7mcJuhBSkw7L1PqtBU kHVwzSKJ.N9_0aEZlmaV2Pg5cVDWRkyKlYUPt6jwOkf04zu16cFCeEEl1LviGGCZIXliQMkh6Xdi ageekAD9xms0p3NWuyvIGEjG32.3oxNEoJ8ksqppHUENvdI7_ZMMgiQGqPi_6P2vaqoHwF1eTFY. 5ZZhWeH_ZViSqQMXFnU.8PfSvD1diENvsfpUTGx_SU7rpBtEjvxD7h9zqoGS02ua67MAKU5aEDuX pCL5mb1kH_Mxvc1MpYFsI.hgnFm4S5YRxUpdcP.GfzBERuoPJbB_IRQ0U6TuszD_6C6JfA6jpU4Z .t12kxnTeN6SqG22w..PcgvZn8oSBlSohQsT23Y0DvwdxOwiSl7N0uBIQfdTHlGSY7XFNMH3LX5N e3C8SImcGiQKZgORveBhF6k5mPG29R4w_1ijKaGyv_kB8H7BbnEVsTSDkqZlMCga9pheBn1V4UvQ 7AJFQ3GMpoYgUxzECxFDpqIANGvEBH20_sNtIOIsRL Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 May 2019 05:52:11 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO Ergus) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp429.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID bb1a18f1206d2fda09aea445f68e4e38; Fri, 17 May 2019 05:52:06 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87r28xq0j1.fsf@telefonica.net> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.13634 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/1.8.0_181) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 74.6.131.40 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120455 Archived-At: On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 04:26:26AM +0200, �scar Fuentes wrote: >Jean-Christophe Helary writes: > >>> On May 17, 2019, at 5:50, �scar Fuentes wrote: >>> >>>> so we need to offer some advantage on the first >>>> try over the others to keep the users. >>> >>> Emacs provides some advantages, but they are not apparent until you >>> experience them. That's a problem for people grown on a culture of >>> instant gratification. Emacs appeals to certain type of users who >>> understand that gains require efforts. >> >> I find that comment extremely condescending. >> >> If "instant gratification" means finding a common ground on which one >> can get started right away, then I'm all for it. > >"Instant gratification" means wanting things that require no learning >nor practicing nor understanding to be effectively used *right* *now*. > The vim phenomenon is the prove that our problem is not "Instant gratification". Vim made many changes in the interface to make all the commands more coherent or shorter. And removed the errors existing in vi even when some people used them as features. There is an interesting article about that. Of course there were complains. There are always complains. >It would be doubleplusgood if Emacs could be one of those things but, >alas, it is obvious that text editors still are on the class of things >that require certain effort to be used effectively. Maybe Emacs requires >a bit more effort at the beginning, but it pays off... at least on text >manipulation tasks. > The problem comes when people needs to configure everything because the defaults are terrible, they rely on some packages and then they can't use another machine (because emacs is not there, or does not have their configuration). So the effort invested and the training, confines them and worth nothing outside their machine. > >> Considering the state of affairs, emacs seems first to appeal to >> people who want to give priority to free software, at the *cost* of >> ease of use. > >>From 1985 to 2010 (give or take a few years and discounting Java and >some other modern language) Emacs was the best programmer's editor on >the "by hackers, for hackers" category. I suppose that most current >users come from that period. > Agree. But future is coming. > >> Access to free software should never be the sole privilege of "users >> who understand that gains require efforts". Quite the opposite. > >Free Software is not a factor *today*, because most competitors are Free >Software too. Even Visual Studio Code is MIT-licensed. > I will no go in the free vs open source here. But no, most of the editors are open source, not free. > >OTOH, we have the vim phenomenon. An "old thing" which is way more >peculiar than Emacs, but with a growing user base. Those who point out >the dificulties of new users to copy and paste or to save text to a file >with Emacs, should ponder how vim has no problem requiring training for >doing the most basic thing a text editor is supposed to do. > Vim is actually my starting point. It is the only editor that worth to compare with emacs. It is easy to explain and I have refereed to this in many maaaaany other emails: 1) vim is there in all the GNU/Linux distros. 2) It works the same in all the systems, in all the languages, even the default color themes are better by default. 3) The keybinds (apart from the insert-escape) are easier, more ergonomic and logically composable. 4) It is extremely responsive and fast to open-close workflows. No lagging, or delays, no server configuration needed. 5) The important editing commands are usually only 1 key far. We can make a simple comparison: Move forward: C-n -> j Move forward 3 lines: M-3 C-n -> 3j (look sparsity in the keyboard) Copy 3 lines and return to point position: C-SPC C-SPC C-a C-SPC M-3 M-w C-u C-SPC C-u C-SPC -> 3yy Plus: hjkl are way more ergonomic than what we have (you can type them with one hand, while the other types the prefix, but they are also together, so going 3 lines up 5 letters left is way faster and easier) Plus: In vim the user can enter complete lines/commands/functions: :e file :8,10 s/search/replace/g which is more intuitive and familiar for terminal users. And those commands are also composable. Plus: There are no conflicts with the modified inputs and the terminals, so they have more keybindings to use. 6) They do one thing and do it well. Editing functionalities have priority (for example column indicator or line numbers were added very long time ago.) 7) I understand it is also much simpler than emacs in functionalities, but that is a benefit from the maintenance and update point of view. They don't need to maintain an interpreter, their own language, a graphical and a terminal interface, different modes for every programming language, wrapper functions for terminal commands like grep (or version control functionalities) a browser, file manager, a server interface and client, a network infrastructure... This also means that the number of programmers and expert fields they need to maintain all the code is also smaller. Let me say: I am NOT making apology of vim, I am just pointing how are they doing and why they success more with a "worst product" because it is not a mystery. I should also highlight that emacs can do (almost) all this: (spacemacs, evil-mode) or in its own way: (ergoemacs, god-mode, hydra) but we still enforce the old way. And we don't promote enough some packages and functionalities that are not imported, but created exclusively for emacs and could make the difference (like avy). > >Maybe, just maybe, having "kill & yank" instead "copy & paste" is not >the cause of Emacs' lack of appeal to the new generations. > It is one more.