From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Is Elisp really that slow? Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 18:14:08 +0200 Message-ID: <20190516161408.4dov3dwk5h4yoizn@Ergus> References: <20190514235412.kncazq45szlum2gr@Ergus> <83v9yb92c7.fsf@gnu.org> <878sv7sp3r.fsf@telefonica.net> <83r28z8zl9.fsf@gnu.org> <20190515210924.sijzy6mnpgzkt4gm@Ergus> <83ftpecwu1.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="187811"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu May 16 18:14:33 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hRJ1c-000mic-Qq for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 16 May 2019 18:14:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60667 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRJ1b-0007fL-Oj for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 16 May 2019 12:14:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47384) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRJ1P-0007fE-Ts for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 16 May 2019 12:14:21 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRJ1O-00077i-Qk for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 16 May 2019 12:14:19 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic307-54.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([87.248.110.31]:44103) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRJ1O-00074h-5z for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 16 May 2019 12:14:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1558023255; bh=Pxc4dhp6bpp6d6rxEY1I3rZKUgF1ukZZHxXEwY8TxJM=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=lra70jlYZxAlYAoaODpglh94fCOi7IVDf57wsm60FMD7ei0vdwS80h4BBnTn0b7tIrOco+gfjAajsMyBrw4ooHAYpL8Gxr9HfPi9rlNGMmakrX+QtIJe7xqlwMsoWIc5tfQwnXx+41pwKN0xpfHbNoJ1li2dAbq5iXrw50s+lV950X0eUQML4pUMt2tnE+uQmereOpd54DURfvvTmXFzqVeZn5dJJDF/bXZhExtnQ1X3YIGpB0YQr9i70v9XWEyrj25doVEDTplNinoPumKKsTEM2G4s7Y8SOYlSlhRlN0Cs3BrufkPMJ0O2A8zFfSM7IPYPLIxGlCns3MsyV33miA== X-YMail-OSG: 34VV8LwVM1kPt4B4Yy9ZNmk2JepVBOZjtv4bCtRNYcxC5ByBE29wKRT9IwAwdLS lgloEhIQyjyEYHcr_l.DOs9tgH0C.8vHM4z9qBQ5rITiqcdyoQsUTfzgPceLH77mQ5JAaQJ0feuN TmLoaPbHIG1Gcjn9_kC_JUGywZhN03o23JmXRbtf.rDNVMtm7i.0WyPT11j5VD1vGKqhKeDYlAs5 7cluaa48AwMdJ8TAvbnrsfNLBST6Xzc6tSvggCZvLq1o7C98jmo.98ediFv4d7h30vBDdHFe9YvA O0VLFnNzQZc6_VqOJxcgLI0LwNvBqz2sNsvHDRmbY_z3Aq4pAMg6lraKCnFdhyVjx40DSw6mz3_l NUe_LmSFfavwbrsL5gJCYKiFGNKBGNN_1j22zPNSY7Q4Dh8laX0JKD67mbz60ZcCL_80y1sWA8hs v1f5CGVPItg96yi5Y9YtFWauNyxqFZ5QjAdnhqMbijU856BdnblkvK8qkRrBB5AGsuhyWHZ.59w_ OOovYE7KCaG3G8GEBYpodpCmDH3U3dmHWprc2TbP4vsvvv_XkRIJs.RMs5sq3Wb0V22CAX1OQFI7 vCsbk7cxlVImMmAddgaORLv0R3Ln8D.ELQpgPH4.c8F1BdUi3dnu_i_uJyREr_5x5dTLbNkXtfI0 X9wqu9lkwWVmADSV32VGAOxf7BbKuV5813w_htj2DFzzXbz6ZLpZ.PnsaPdyEr8eKbBYxOCaUJNL hrvrFlvJ3bq9SXfkvINVH50kf2y8H8JtGKbx6UJt_r0uAx9egUh4WGq.C8scqy1YdwmelhnUDSK_ AXeJ1e1PpOTOhvf4wLz.5rSplkCql9sty8v0w.njfb Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 16 May 2019 16:14:15 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO Ergus) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp411.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 74c37827bd71ac372871d9435c9e7b40; Thu, 16 May 2019 16:14:14 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83ftpecwu1.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 87.248.110.31 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120444 Archived-At: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 05:12:22PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 23:09:24 +0200 >> From: Ergus >> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org >> Hi Eli. Sorry, maybe this email sounds stronger than the intention. >> We are far from becoming a toxic community, but new/different ideas are >> not really very welcome and sometimes the arguments are like "it has >> always been like that", "old users don't want that change". > >Really? You've just went through a process of proposing and >implementing a new feature -- did you feel your idea was "not really >welcome"? > Actually fill-column-indicator was something that many people were using (with the package) but it doesn't affect the global behavior at all. Actually I think that most of the users won't even know that the functionality will be there probably until emacs 30 when the fill-column-indicator package just stop working or so. But also it was an addition. Adding features to emacs is something easy from the mailing list point of view. Actually we something is added that solves N problems that nobody complained before (as fci) then automatically appears some mails claiming that it must solve P other issues to no body have complained either. But when we mention (propose, suggest) to do any change in the defaults or remove obsolete functionalities to promote new ones, or change old features to add more modern ones... the mailing list starts becoming crazy. Just give a look what happen when I just mention the C-c C-c example. So at the end everything goes in and nothing goes out... that's unmaintainable YKWIM. >> The conservative attitude in emacs development group (apart from the >> technical obstacles like the workflow and the paperwork and so on) gives >> the idea of a closed environment (that actually it is from the >> development point of view because we are like frozen in the past) where >> only very experts are welcome (that's the vision people have from >> outside) so very few melpa developers are really interested to face all >> those issues to contribute. > >Is this your experience from implementing the fill-column indicator? >If so, how do you explain that you, as a relative non-expert, were >welcome in that case? > I put explicitly: that's the vision people have from outside. Actually I was surprised that you were son kind, and patient with all the emails and questions. But again fci does not affect anyone that does not enable it, and actually the reddit post just received a couple of comments. So actually it is a specific functionality that maybe shouldn't have been added because there was not interest on it. But any proposals that potentially change any default or break any backward compatibility or even correct previous mistakes or update some behavior are actually like a bomb in the mailing list. Just give a look how long it took to enable delete-selection-mode or transient-mark-mode since they were implemented and proposed the first time. But also the new behaviors as they need to be optional, many functions need to check a lot of conditional to work in all the situations. Just give a look how many good packages are in melpa, but not in elpa in spite of they are totally free with no dependencies and their maintainers are very active, and the communities too. (elpy, slime, helm, company, swiper-avy-counsel...).