From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Is Elisp really that slow? Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 03:32:35 +0200 Message-ID: <20190516013235.lxkynp5lfnblpk3p@Ergus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="270107"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu May 16 03:44:31 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hR5Re-0018Be-W2 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 16 May 2019 03:44:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46798 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hR5Rd-0006LR-TK for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 15 May 2019 21:44:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:55408) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hR5RB-00067P-Jg for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 May 2019 21:44:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hR5GF-0008Ki-8t for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 May 2019 21:32:44 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic305-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.177.83]:38596) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hR5GE-0008I3-PR for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 May 2019 21:32:43 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1557970360; bh=YV9i4yTuAviYhIlbMx/PHDXaEOCrUyb4sDq+QvNkFb4=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From:Subject; b=JiOMtivdx8y6w4Tbkva0lmMkyxAOoEcERvc26Q09Ua3cBEI29fI9jQHEW/Lb8B0hkV9qB1cQ339YE99QHj2wwRp1LgdHfEQ4N60CUgks81BJdgW4mD6SKBATcjKwPCSEK61fnJ/ydu2XT93fYMUDJuGsPh3isehUU1lF/W+sHEgCn6hbOSOrvyMTwdIwP4ILf2o0+W0evOtbhTnpbVHdzV2h+9NMLCdBNk1+nxvW8DR6wir7ubxT/UYVshbBUxF24ZFMya67oHZ17m3D9xlFzdTHTMj3qZ351Z3bf5EOrWCSWP92fGpZDOtiKCZRW7mHMuLE0DgQ2PbhJVJWH+94lw== X-YMail-OSG: kKuQ.5gVM1lMXv831RX.0zmh4zSkcwIsGC5b0OKxcy41uJP1I9syVAsU7I70ujT L5BM_vdqR6xxb1AOr8x8dYqE0Rn2IvIcJr5sWHvxG7Y4Nk6cBE8mgVthps7jt1vHgSk.XUY4mrj. Vw5.buOZLHjw8mIV2o3zRDC0ExrK1VDYDMVK8tDk9x8EXPRM3LInz0qPO9CqpXD5tOldSI4_89lr 1G1gfsS8wKX_TPxwnKp.ISLeDopoy9vLQJmsJuImmrMV8aCQ2FurYOoe2FQFU3WcAaEjjnt2Upwl qUwgOQRyx.RCh7KUY4_TTiJQfJdYeX8rXFbspBycyUIAWHR1qQnLHxIV0YUUeUyPeX4vv3BOiJxT h6Us.YiiWzbuSBAzZ5wYZUr3tJ0lglRxYewtfgSeONd8HZvyIF1ViifebCAKHWt1q3DVizJtXoKo dTdzPtTpCbYE0jj51sYPKHHQ1j32NuAkYX4iOJlIjxdrtaEA.p3mggQpn2PrqtP.NHxbhBYOh7cG 4NyYQBhvemal8tPe1KnRrmFglsB5vbiiAn8LOvMR9.1ADb2j4t75VeqjlTRjKcVMfQtYA4A4dfzZ ewQuhdQ63wowPAVwsFSac9KfuGc5PutDkgcci_2PlAPpyB0mRt6fYx70ISMr2RABqrQKfRjbifhF GnuJmaBiqFdMmipn4pNfkMOYTLrB5ppWuWAo1IOmxreruncNkdVmUZstasr24Lcn4LQl1W2owcni DsQo.ha.mNohR53oTGwcwXxV62lnUd9mnK.6CfknfHpjzCkACXqE4cZWC0qMcd8iguV5jPkXO5zC lop1fyNBbtZagT9d5_kMVOU6twr0e9ffd7KO2d16zv Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 16 May 2019 01:32:40 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO Ergus) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp426.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 85ccc83e0cf871fa3ea3353cb86d2fdb for ; Thu, 16 May 2019 01:32:39 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 77.238.177.83 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120434 Archived-At: > > So... I am scared now to be sincere here... > > but yes. That's better (and more logical) > > than confusing and scare the users. > > Again this talk about scaring the users. > Are computer people so darn afraid and fragile > these days? Without boasting, let me boast that > when I started Emacs the very first time, > I wasn't the least scared, in fact I thought it > was awesome, including the Lisp part, and > I have used it ever since. > Times has changes, developers too, alternative software grows like mushrooms. What we used to do exceptionally better than the rest, now is provided more or less by many other applications. The user experience is different now and the needs too. Projects are bigger and more complex, they mix languages constantly (just thin in Javascript+PHP+ASP+SQL+CSS), languages are more complex... The choice to use a tool is based on how more productive and easy to use it is, not in how powerful it is after 3000 lines of configuration and reading 5000 pages manual and learning another programming language. Also there is a baseline already that the 99% of the users are use do things differently (copy, paste, mouse wheel behavior, rectangular selection, save, search, undo-redo) and the users don't want (and it actually does not make too much sense) switch to M-w C-y and so on if they already know a method that works for their browser, their games and their chats. So yes, they feel scared when they type emacs and they don't know how to exit, or how to copy, paste, or search text with C-f, or save with C-s... Suppose that even after that they persist and after 2 hours reading a manual and a tutorial they try to comment a line in Python mode with C-c C-c because they saw that it works for a c program in stack overflow, or try to copy text from the minibuffer the same way they do in the main buffer. The user needs to see advantage over other systems/applications to feel attracted enough to spend the initial time that emacs requires and deall with the uncommon issues. In 1992 there were less alternatives around and most of them were uglier, notably more limited or most expensive. But in 2019 there are cheaper, prettier and free alternatives. They are not as powerful as emacs, but they are more ergonomic and do the work and include small details to make the life easier||simpler||faster out of the box. > > > If everything is organized in advance it will > > be, actually it may simplify and reduce a lot > > of redundant code, reduce the manual (good > > for developers and the users because will > > need to read less to start working), avoid > > conflicts in the mailing list (and > > discussions like this). Help external > > developers to provide better packages at leas > > more organized and standard without conflicts > > with the internal functionalities. > > ??? All that will happen from changing a bunch > of keybindings? If all the section modes in the manuals could remove the repeated (non specific) commands and bindings that now they have to specify because everything is disordered from their sections, the modes don't have to include the explicit binding from them, The users don't need to learn different commands in every different mode and the packages developers had a clear set of reserved bindings to avoid. Yes all this will in some degree happen. But as you can see, it is not "a bunch" of keybindings. Ans something I am pretty sure will never happen.