want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Dan Hitt]

For the notes i keep, sometimes i would like to sometimes include a
picture (jpg or png or maybe some other format).

emacs seems to have no problem displaying a picture but i would like
to add words to it.

So reading the file in emacs would be something like looking at html,
but i would prefer it something to be hot-editable, just like text
files are.

That is, i would prefer not to have any markup in the file whatsoever,
just a block of text, then a picture, then more text, then another
picture, and so on.  Perhaps an unprintable character could divide the
sections, and each section type could be recognized as either starting
with the magic words of a jpg or png and be presented as a picture, or
otherwise, presented as utf-8.  (So i guess the unprintable character
would be markup, but certainly i wouldn't want something as lengthy as
<img> to appear in the file.)

Ideally, emacs would recognize the type of file it was by a
mode-defining like at the top, like -*- text -*- (except, of course,
not text).

Does any file format/mode combo like this exist?

TIA for any clues!! :)

dan

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Daian YUE]

On 2017-12-02 08:02, Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:
> For the notes i keep, sometimes i would like to sometimes include a
> picture (jpg or png or maybe some other format).
>
> emacs seems to have no problem displaying a picture but i would like
> to add words to it.
>
> So reading the file in emacs would be something like looking at html,
> but i would prefer it something to be hot-editable, just like text
> files are.
>
> That is, i would prefer not to have any markup in the file whatsoever,
> just a block of text, then a picture, then more text, then another
> picture, and so on.  Perhaps an unprintable character could divide the
> sections, and each section type could be recognized as either starting
> with the magic words of a jpg or png and be presented as a picture, or
> otherwise, presented as utf-8.  (So i guess the unprintable character
> would be markup, but certainly i wouldn't want something as lengthy as
> <img> to appear in the file.)
>
> Ideally, emacs would recognize the type of file it was by a
> mode-defining like at the top, like -*- text -*- (except, of course,
> not text).
>
> Does any file format/mode combo like this exist?
>
> TIA for any clues!! :)
>
> dan

Hi Dan,

I think Org Mode is what you are looking for.

From what you want, it contains following features:
- pure text based
- Emacs built-in, very easy to works with
- can embed pictures easily [[some_picture.jpg]]
- has many inline declaration for controlling titles, code blocks etc
- can be exported to Makrdown, HTML, etc etc

I personally used it to generate development documentation (pictures
included) in a small project.

It is really handy to edit org file in Emacs, then "C-e h h" to generate
HTML. The style of generated HTML file can be modified by external CSS
file.

Also, many people (including me) use Org Mode for task
scheduling/management, taking notes, writing documentations, blogs, etc.

I highly recommend you to give it a try. :-)

Danny

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Dan Hitt]

On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 5:06 AM, Daian YUE <sheepduke@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2017-12-02 08:02, Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:
>> For the notes i keep, sometimes i would like to sometimes include a
>> picture (jpg or png or maybe some other format).
>>
>> emacs seems to have no problem displaying a picture but i would like
>> to add words to it.
>>
>> So reading the file in emacs would be something like looking at html,
>> but i would prefer it something to be hot-editable, just like text
>> files are.
>>
>> That is, i would prefer not to have any markup in the file whatsoever,
>> just a block of text, then a picture, then more text, then another
>> picture, and so on.  Perhaps an unprintable character could divide the
>> sections, and each section type could be recognized as either starting
>> with the magic words of a jpg or png and be presented as a picture, or
>> otherwise, presented as utf-8.  (So i guess the unprintable character
>> would be markup, but certainly i wouldn't want something as lengthy as
>> <img> to appear in the file.)
>>
>> Ideally, emacs would recognize the type of file it was by a
>> mode-defining like at the top, like -*- text -*- (except, of course,
>> not text).
>>
>> Does any file format/mode combo like this exist?
>>
>> TIA for any clues!! :)
>>
>> dan
>
> Hi Dan,
>
> I think Org Mode is what you are looking for.
>
> From what you want, it contains following features:
> - pure text based
> - Emacs built-in, very easy to works with
> - can embed pictures easily [[some_picture.jpg]]
> - has many inline declaration for controlling titles, code blocks etc
> - can be exported to Makrdown, HTML, etc etc
>
> I personally used it to generate development documentation (pictures
> included) in a small project.
>
> It is really handy to edit org file in Emacs, then "C-e h h" to generate
> HTML. The style of generated HTML file can be modified by external CSS
> file.
>
> Also, many people (including me) use Org Mode for task
> scheduling/management, taking notes, writing documentations, blogs, etc.
>
> I highly recommend you to give it a try. :-)
>
> Danny
>

Thanks Danny!!

People talk a lot about org-mode but i had never actually used it
until you recommended it.

It looks very useful, and it can indeed show images
(org-redisplay-inline-images).  So i appreciate your introducing it to
me.

The one aspect of org mode (or html) that is a sort of problem is that
the images it shows cannot exist in the file itself, but rather float
in the file system (or presumably served remotely over http).

The problem here is breakage.  The image can get renamed or deleted,
and then the file.org is broken.

That's why i would like something where the image is copied directly
into the file.

Thanks again for the suggestion, which has an appearance close to what
i want, and which will be useful independently of whether i can
actually embed an image inside a file in a way emacs can see and
display it inline.

dan

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2017-12-02, at 21:31, Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:

> The one aspect of org mode (or html) that is a sort of problem is that
> the images it shows cannot exist in the file itself, but rather float
> in the file system (or presumably served remotely over http).
>
> The problem here is breakage.  The image can get renamed or deleted,
> and then the file.org is broken.
>
> That's why i would like something where the image is copied directly
> into the file.

I'm pretty sure you could embed the image in some kind of a source
block, so that after executing it, the image file would appear in the
current directory.  I could try to make a proof of concept tomorrow if
you're interested.

-- 
Marcin Borkowski

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Dan Hitt]

On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> wrote:
>
> On 2017-12-02, at 21:31, Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The one aspect of org mode (or html) that is a sort of problem is that
>> the images it shows cannot exist in the file itself, but rather float
>> in the file system (or presumably served remotely over http).
>>
>> The problem here is breakage.  The image can get renamed or deleted,
>> and then the file.org is broken.
>>
>> That's why i would like something where the image is copied directly
>> into the file.
>
> I'm pretty sure you could embed the image in some kind of a source
> block, so that after executing it, the image file would appear in the
> current directory.  I could try to make a proof of concept tomorrow if
> you're interested.
>
> --
> Marcin Borkowski

Hi Marcin,

You are very nice, but what is a 'source block'?

Is this like cdata in html?

dan

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[tomas]

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Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 02:47:23PM -0800, Dan Hitt wrote:

[...]

> Hi Marcin,
> 
> You are very nice, but what is a 'source block'?
> 
> Is this like cdata in html?

Yes and no :-)

In org mode, a source block looks like

#+BEGIN_SRC C
void img_free(img *image)
{
  if(image) {
    if(image->pixels) free(image->pixels);
    free(image);
  }
}
#+END_SRC

Meaning: the code between this markup is C source code. Thus Org
knows, for many languages:

  - how to highlight it and edit it, via the appropriate
    Emacs mode

  - how to "execute" it (and if you wish, insert the
    results into your buffer). Yes, for C, Org would
    call the compiler for you, for a snippet like the
    above pack some boilerplate around it with a main
    function calling into your func, and printing the
    return value, for org to collect the result (that's
    Org babel magic).

There are many ways to pass parameters to source code blocks,
which controls their behaviour.

Definitely worth a look.

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Dan Hitt]

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 2:10 AM,  <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 02:47:23PM -0800, Dan Hitt wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Hi Marcin,
>>
>> You are very nice, but what is a 'source block'?
>>
>> Is this like cdata in html?
>
> Yes and no :-)
>
> In org mode, a source block looks like
>
> #+BEGIN_SRC C
> void img_free(img *image)
> {
>   if(image) {
>     if(image->pixels) free(image->pixels);
>     free(image);
>   }
> }
> #+END_SRC
>
> Meaning: the code between this markup is C source code. Thus Org
> knows, for many languages:
>
>   - how to highlight it and edit it, via the appropriate
>     Emacs mode
>
>   - how to "execute" it (and if you wish, insert the
>     results into your buffer). Yes, for C, Org would
>     call the compiler for you, for a snippet like the
>     above pack some boilerplate around it with a main
>     function calling into your func, and printing the
>     return value, for org to collect the result (that's
>     Org babel magic).
>
> There are many ways to pass parameters to source code blocks,
> which controls their behaviour.
>
> Definitely worth a look.
>
> Cheers
> - -- t
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> =q2aB
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>

Wow, i mean, just wow.

Presumably there's some confirmation necessary for compilation and
execution, or otherwise it would be some kind of multi-lingual hole
(??)

I have to think about this for a few days :) :) . . . . .

dan

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[tomas]

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On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 11:17:48AM -0800, Dan Hitt wrote:

[...]

> Wow, i mean, just wow.

That was more or less my reaction when I discovered org-babel, yes :-)

> Presumably there's some confirmation necessary for compilation and
> execution, or otherwise it would be some kind of multi-lingual hole
> (??)

Yes, by default you get asked before each execution.

> I have to think about this for a few days :) :) . . . . .

Enjoy
- -- t
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2017-12-02, at 22:08, Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> wrote:

> On 2017-12-02, at 21:31, Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The one aspect of org mode (or html) that is a sort of problem is that
>> the images it shows cannot exist in the file itself, but rather float
>> in the file system (or presumably served remotely over http).
>>
>> The problem here is breakage.  The image can get renamed or deleted,
>> and then the file.org is broken.
>>
>> That's why i would like something where the image is copied directly
>> into the file.
>
> I'm pretty sure you could embed the image in some kind of a source
> block, so that after executing it, the image file would appear in the
> current directory.  I could try to make a proof of concept tomorrow if
> you're interested.

OK, so here's my (quite simplistic, but apparently working well enough)
solution:

http://mbork.pl/2017-12-04_Embedding_files_in_Org-mode

Hth,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Marcin Borkowski wrote:

> OK, so here's my (quite simplistic, but
> apparently working well enough) solution:

As long as it works, the simpler the better.

> http://mbork.pl/2017-12-04_Embedding_files_in_Org-mode

Why don't you post the reply/code here as well?

The argument name (filename) doesn't match the
reference in the docstring ("FILE"), other than
that it seems good to me...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2017-12-04, at 12:28, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:

> Marcin Borkowski wrote:
>
>> OK, so here's my (quite simplistic, but
>> apparently working well enough) solution:
>
> As long as it works, the simpler the better.

Well, it is not bullet-proof, and a few options/bells-and-whistles might
be nice.

>> http://mbork.pl/2017-12-04_Embedding_files_in_Org-mode
>
> Why don't you post the reply/code here as well?

Well, I'd like people to visit my blog...?

> The argument name (filename) doesn't match the
> reference in the docstring ("FILE"), other than
> that it seems good to me...

Thanks, corrected.

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Marcin Borkowski wrote:

> Well, it is not bullet-proof, and a few
> options/bells-and-whistles might be nice.

Even so they won't protect against bullets.

>>> http://mbork.pl/2017-12-04_Embedding_files_in_Org-mode
>>
>> Why don't you post the reply/code here
>> as well?
>
> Well, I'd like people to visit my blog...?

Why don't you post the reply/code here as well,
and provide a URL to your blog?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2017-12-05, at 06:56, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:

> Marcin Borkowski wrote:
>
>> Well, it is not bullet-proof, and a few
>> options/bells-and-whistles might be nice.
>
> Even so they won't protect against bullets.

It might protect against being invoked with point not at bol.

It also might be able to ask for the name of the file to put into the
elisp snippet.

These are things I had in mind.

>>>> http://mbork.pl/2017-12-04_Embedding_files_in_Org-mode
>>>
>>> Why don't you post the reply/code here
>>> as well?
>>
>> Well, I'd like people to visit my blog...?
>
> Why don't you post the reply/code here as well,
> and provide a URL to your blog?

DRY? ;-)

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Marcin Borkowski wrote:

>> Why don't you post the reply/code here as
>> well, and provide a URL to your blog?
>
> DRY? ;-)

This list is probably more search engine
friendly than your blog. Also, if someone
Googles the material and finds the list entry,
the subsequent and previous discussion might
also be of help to him/her, not just your
answer/blog post in particular - hard to
imagine, I know - but I always said to
overconfident programmers some modesty is
a virtue, because somewhere on the planet,
there is a programmer more skilled than you.

:)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2017-12-07, at 02:26, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:

> Marcin Borkowski wrote:
>
>>> Why don't you post the reply/code here as
>>> well, and provide a URL to your blog?
>>
>> DRY? ;-)
>
> This list is probably more search engine
> friendly than your blog. Also, if someone
> Googles the material and finds the list entry,
> the subsequent and previous discussion might
> also be of help to him/her, not just your
> answer/blog post in particular - hard to
> imagine, I know - but I always said to
> overconfident programmers some modesty is
> a virtue, because somewhere on the planet,
> there is a programmer more skilled than you.

Fair enough.

FWIW, the blog post contains a link to this thread.

-- 
Marcin Borkowski

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Let's approach this "Emacs text buffer + shell
tools vs. Org mode" in another way.

Currently, my computer project is to produce
drawings over the area where I'm active.
So far, I have one ASCII drawing and one
drawing with pic(1). The pic drawing is far
from done so the proportions of the houses etc
are all wrong, and there are many things left
to put in the drawing anyway.

But as for this little experiment, this is
actually good! Because

    1) this project is very low-tech,
       a simpleton could do it, so any piece of
       development technology should be able to
       approach it; and

    2) it isn't done, by far, so everything
       that is proposed can actually be tested
       in the wild right this instant.

So my question is: how can I use Org mode to do
it? (My method I'm already aware of,
thank you.)

Here is the material - house wall ASCII drawing:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/moasen/big-house-back.txt

pic drawing, with pic data, Makefile, and PS
and PDF result files:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/moasen/drawing/

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

YT wrote:

> Let's approach this "Emacs text buffer +
> shell tools vs. Org mode" in another way.

With "text buffer", I mean "buffer displaying
text in a suitable Emacs major mode".
But I think you understood that. In this case,
I have configured `auto-mode-alist' to have the
.pic extention trigger nroff-mode. pic is part
of the whole groff pipeline so nroff-mode was
the closest I could find. Actually, what it
does (so far) is just some colors to make it
look good, but that's important, of course.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Rusi]

On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 7:36:34 AM UTC+5:30, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Let's approach this "Emacs text buffer + shell
> tools vs. Org mode" in another way.
> 
> Currently, my computer project is to produce
> drawings over the area where I'm active.
> So far, I have one ASCII drawing and one
> drawing with pic(1). The pic drawing is far
> from done so the proportions of the houses etc
> are all wrong, and there are many things left
> to put in the drawing anyway.
> 
> But as for this little experiment, this is
> actually good! Because
> 
>     1) this project is very low-tech,
>        a simpleton could do it, so any piece of
>        development technology should be able to
>        approach it; and
> 
>     2) it isn't done, by far, so everything
>        that is proposed can actually be tested
>        in the wild right this instant.
> 
> So my question is: how can I use Org mode to do
> it? (My method I'm already aware of,
> thank you.)
> 
> Here is the material - house wall ASCII drawing:
> 
>     http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/moasen/big-house-back.txt
> 
> pic drawing, with pic data, Makefile, and PS
> and PDF result files:
> 
>     http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/moasen/drawing/

Dont see any (pic mode ASCII) art there
Anyways in outline (org!)…

* Lookup ditaa: http://ditaa.sourceforge.net/
* Install (apt/sourceforge/org/whatever)
* (re)do your pic for ditaa
* Get it working to your satisfaction (no emacs or org so far; just shell)
* Get it running in org http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages/ob-doc-ditaa.html

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Rusi wrote:

> Dont see any (pic mode ASCII)

There are *two* different parts of this!

The ASCII is this:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/moasen/big-house-back.txt

The pic source, for which I use nroff-mode, is this:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/moasen/drawing/ws.pic

with the Makefile and output files in the same
dir:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/moasen/drawing/

> * Lookup ditaa: http://ditaa.sourceforge.net/
> * Install (apt/sourceforge/org/whatever) *
> (re)do your pic for ditaa * Get it working to
> your satisfaction (no emacs or org so far;
> just shell) * Get it running in org
> http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages/ob-doc-ditaa.html

Re-doing it with another tool does not really
count as "how can Org mode help me complete the
task". If it can't, that's fine. It doesn't
disqualify Org mode as a good IDE for other
purposes. Actually I think not a lot of people
do drawings with pic - it is rather for this
kind of figures:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/figures/pic/

But in an indirect way this shows the built-in
shortcoming that is inherent in all IDEs,
which is they only work with what people
thought is useful.

The Emacs buffer and shell tools work for
everything, including, as this example shows,
ideas that that uses stuff that weren't even
intented for that idea!

So because it is on a lower level, very limited
in itself, interestingly, this doesn't limit
the user and he/she can take it to any level
he/she wishes. If he/she has the ability to do
so, of course ;)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

YT wrote:

> Re-doing it with another tool does not really
> count as "how can Org mode help me complete
> the task".

For this little game to be fair, forget what
I said about my particular project. The issue
is the general problems, of course, and they
are:

    1. draw/produce ASCII art
    
    2. use pic(1) to produce figures

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Eric S Fraga]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 729 bytes --]

On Thursday,  7 Dec 2017 at 03:06, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> So my question is: how can I use Org mode to do
> it? (My method I'm already aware of,
> thank you.)

I would have an example block first which allows the editing of the
ascii drawing and then an nroff src block (although there is currently
no actual support for nroff but trivial to add) for the pic diagram.

Instead of an example block, you could use artist mode which is (in org)
associated with ditaa if you wanted to use emacs fully to draw manually.

I do this all the time with graphviz and plantuml diagrams inline in my
text for preparing (beamer) slides for teaching.  pic would be no
different.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.4

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Eric S Fraga wrote:

> I would have an example block first which
> allows the editing of the ascii drawing and
> then an nroff src block (although there is
> currently no actual support for nroff but
> trivial to add) for the pic diagram.

In general, if there is no support for *roff
this is a very severe flaw in any IDE as groff
is the markup and typesetting language of the
man pages - a cornerstone of any Unix system.

Even so, *roff is much more powerful and within
the military-publicist complex some use it to
layout commercial books like others
would LaTeX.

Here (my little project), nroff-mode isn't
essential because I just use it (so far) to get
some rudimentary font lock. For that, there are
other modes that could serve just as well.
nroff is closest tho conceptually as pic is
part of the groff pipeline tool chain,
as stated.

But anyhow, if I were to do as you suggest, and
I must confess I didn't understand any of
it :), what is the first step?

> Instead of an example block, you could use
> artist mode which is (in org) associated with
> ditaa if you wanted to use emacs fully to
> draw manually.

OK, how do I do that? I.e., how do I get into
that mode?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Rusi]

On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 5:05:19 PM UTC+5:30, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Eric S Fraga wrote:
> 
> > I would have an example block first which
> > allows the editing of the ascii drawing and
> > then an nroff src block (although there is
> > currently no actual support for nroff but
> > trivial to add) for the pic diagram.
> 
> In general, if there is no support for *roff
> this is a very severe flaw in any IDE as groff
> is the markup and typesetting language of the
> man pages - a cornerstone of any Unix system.
> 
> Even so, *roff is much more powerful and within
> the military-publicist complex some use it to
> layout commercial books like others
> would LaTeX.
> 
> Here (my little project), nroff-mode isn't
> essential because I just use it (so far) to get
> some rudimentary font lock. For that, there are
> other modes that could serve just as well.
> nroff is closest tho conceptually as pic is
> part of the groff pipeline tool chain,
> as stated.
> 
> But anyhow, if I were to do as you suggest, and
> I must confess I didn't understand any of
> it :), what is the first step?


Speaking conceptually

You basically want a babel language binding for groff (-p)
The general idea of babel bindings is

http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages.html

To make a new binding a template is provided:
http://orgmode.org/w/worg.git/blob/HEAD:/org-contrib/babel/ob-template.el

Someone seems to have put together something for groff (attachment of)
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2016-03/msg00434.html

(You may need to stick in a -p to use pic)

That is speaking conceptually ;-) Speaking more helpfully:
I would say for a first dive into org start with something more mainstream
rather than picking up some rough and untried code and shoe-horning it to your
needs

But then
1. I am very far from a babel expert — noob is more accurate
2. Even after 25 years of emacs I find configuration slow, painful and error-prone

Very likely you are much better than I ;-) and may enjoy the dive
Just thought I should say this is diving in at the deep end…

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Eric S Fraga]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 725 bytes --]

On Thursday,  7 Dec 2017 at 12:35, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> But anyhow, if I were to do as you suggest, and
> I must confess I didn't understand any of
> it :), what is the first step?

The attached file is an org file which has two src blocks, one for
generating an image using ditaa and one using dot (graphviz).  To edit
either of these blocks, position point within them and type C-c '.  This
will open up a new buffer with the contents of the src block and with
the major  mode set appropriately (artist mode for ditaa and
graphviz-mode for dot).

C-c ' gets you back to the original org buffer.

You can then export the file to, e.g., LaTeX by C-c C-e l o.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.3

[-- Attachment #1.2: example.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 23276 bytes --]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1.3: example.org --]
[-- Type: text/x-org, Size: 833 bytes --]

#+title: Simple babel example org file
#+options: toc:nil num:nil

* Drawing using ASCII
#+begin_src ditaa :exports results :results file :file drawing.png


          +------------+             +-----------+
          |            |             |           |
          |            |             |           |
          |  Box 1     +------------>+  Box 2    |
          |            |             |           |
          |            |             |           |
          +------------+             +-----------+
#+end_src


* Now using graphviz
#+begin_src dot :exports results :results file :file anotherdiagram.png
  digraph G {
          rankdir = LR;
        
          node [shape="rectangle"];

          one [label="Box 1"];
          two [label="Box 2"];

          one -> two;
  }
#+end_src

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Joost Kremers]

On Thu, Dec 07 2017, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> The attached file is an org file which has two src blocks, one 
> for
> generating an image using ditaa and one using dot (graphviz).

You're exporting both to png, which IHMO is a no-no when including 
those files into a pdf. I know, it's just an example, but it does 
make me wonder: are ditaa and graphviz able to produce pdf output?

-- 
Joost Kremers
Life has its moments

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Eric S Fraga]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 657 bytes --]

On Thursday,  7 Dec 2017 at 15:52, Joost Kremers wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 07 2017, Eric S Fraga wrote:
>> The attached file is an org file which has two src blocks, one for
>> generating an image using ditaa and one using dot (graphviz).
>
> You're exporting both to png, which IHMO is a no-no when including
> those files into a pdf. I know, it's just an example, but it does make
> me wonder: are ditaa and graphviz able to produce pdf output?

Yes, they do produce PDF if desired.  this was just for illustration,
mostly because PNG will export better to HTML in case anybody wanted to
try that.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.3

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Yuri Khan]

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 10:04 PM, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:

>> You're exporting both to png, which IHMO is a no-no when including
>> those files into a pdf. I know, it's just an example, but it does make
>> me wonder: are ditaa and graphviz able to produce pdf output?
>
> Yes, they do produce PDF if desired.  this was just for illustration,
> mostly because PNG will export better to HTML in case anybody wanted to
> try that.

For HTML, use SVG instead.

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Eric S Fraga]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1062 bytes --]

On Thursday,  7 Dec 2017 at 22:18, Yuri Khan wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 10:04 PM, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>> You're exporting both to png, which IHMO is a no-no when including
>>> those files into a pdf. I know, it's just an example, but it does make
>>> me wonder: are ditaa and graphviz able to produce pdf output?
>>
>> Yes, they do produce PDF if desired.  this was just for illustration,
>> mostly because PNG will export better to HTML in case anybody wanted to
>> try that.
>
> For HTML, use SVG instead.

It was *just* an illustration for Emanuel!

But I have never been entirely happy with svg as a graphics target due
to the variability of support for such graphics in different
browsers.  I'd rather trade-off a reduction in quality for an
improvement in accessibility.  But that's my choice of course.

Also, with reference to the OP, I am not sure Emacs can display inline
PDF images as it can PNG and other bitmap images.  Maybe it can.  Never
tried!

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.4

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Dan Hitt]

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 1:26 AM, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
....
> Also, with reference to the OP, I am not sure Emacs can display inline
> PDF images as it can PNG and other bitmap images.  Maybe it can.  Never
> tried!
>

Thanks Eric for the suggestion.

I think it can (i just tried looking at some PDFs and the images show
up, including some that sure look like full color bitmaps), but it
tends to be slow, and most importantly the PDF files not editable.
(Or at least i think they're not, i've sure been wrong on other
things.)

That's also reasonable, because the PDF standard is very complex --- i
think writing a parser for pdf is probably comparable to writing an
interpreter for some pretty featureful language (??).

That's why i was looking for some really simple format.  For example,
some very early version of some word processor format, which has
enough complexity that it can inline images and show text, but not
dozens of features.

Is there some early word processor format, which can display both text
and images, for which there is a free editor whose sources span say no
more than a dozen files?  (Library requirements would not count
against the dozen files :). )

Such a format is probably what i'm looking for (as it is conceivable
that a responsive emacs mode could be written for it at some point).

Anyhow, i appreciate everybody's ideas, and i'm really enjoying org
mode, even though i'm still quite clumsy with it.

dan

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Eric S Fraga]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 813 bytes --]

On Friday,  8 Dec 2017 at 11:37, Dan Hitt wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 1:26 AM, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
> ....
>> Also, with reference to the OP, I am not sure Emacs can display inline
>> PDF images as it can PNG and other bitmap images.  Maybe it can.  Never
>> tried!
>>
>
> Thanks Eric for the suggestion.
>
> I think it can (i just tried looking at some PDFs and the images show
> up, including some that sure look like full color bitmaps), but it
> tends to be slow, and most importantly the PDF files not editable.
> (Or at least i think they're not, i've sure been wrong on other
> things.)

Yes, emacs can display PDF files directly.  However, I am not sure if it
can display a PDF file inline within a text buffer...

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.4

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Kaushal Modi]

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017, 5:21 AM Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:

>
> Yes, emacs can display PDF files directly.  However, I am not sure if it
> can display a PDF file inline within a text buffer...
>

One way is to well.. convert PDF to PNG on the fly :)

https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/401/115

> --

Kaushal Modi

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Eric S Fraga wrote:

> Yes, emacs can display PDF files directly.
> However, I am not sure if it can display
> a PDF file inline within a text buffer...

I said in this thread, repeated something
I heard earlier (but I believed it at both
occasions), that one can use Org mode for the
"medium level" documents between text files and
the really ambitious documents like books and
university papers.

But those can be made with Org mode as well!

Well, so can the "text file" stuff (TODO lists,
technical data just bunched together for later
reference, etc.) - but using Org mode for that
isn't really called for. But on the other end,
the books and university papers, it is rather
LaTeX that isn't really called for anymore!
Save for in special cases.

I suppose the only reason that remains to do it
is where you have the
artistic/pefectionist/aristocratic/"desert
penguin" time and space to fiddle with every
little detail forever...

And of course if you enjoy to do it.
Which I never thought was something that rare.
But perhaps that's what it is?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Yuri Khan wrote:

> For HTML, use SVG instead.

Again, what's wrong with PNG? I always used it
for both PDF and HTML.

How would one convert all the PNGs into SVGs?
convert(1) ?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Yuri Khan]

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:

>> For HTML, use SVG instead.
>
> Again, what's wrong with PNG? I always used it
> for both PDF and HTML.

PNG is a bitmap format. Every time you export a vector drawing into
PNG, it gets rasterized, most probably to a resolution 96 dpi. It
looks okay on most computer monitors at 100% zoom. However, on a
bigger zoom, or on a HiDPI monitor, or in print, it becomes either
blurry or jaggy.

The problem is somewhat less serious if you specifically generate an
oversampled bitmap, at 200 dpi or higher. But you then get all the
disadvantages of huge bitmap images, such as file size, decoding time,
and memory consumption.

> How would one convert all the PNGs into SVGs?
> convert(1) ?

Nohow. Rasterization is, for most intents and purposes, irreversible.
If you have PNGs made from sources that are vector in nature, your
best bet is to throw them away and re-generate vector graphics from
your sources.

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Yuri Khan wrote:

>> How would one convert all the PNGs into
>> SVGs? convert(1) ?
>
> Nohow. Rasterization is, for most intents and
> purposes, irreversible. If you have PNGs made
> from sources that are vector in nature, your
> best bet is to throw them away and
> re-generate vector graphics from
> your sources.

Mostly I got them with fbgrab and, in X,
gnome-screenshot . So I can't redo them.
But perhaps they (the programs) can be
configured to output SVGs from now on...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Yuri Khan]

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 2:07 AM, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:

> Mostly I got them with fbgrab and, in X,
> gnome-screenshot . So I can't redo them.
> But perhaps they (the programs) can be
> configured to output SVGs from now on...

Screenshots are bitmaps to begin with. They are a lost cause.

Although I remember someone doing experiments on Emacs + Cairo, one of
the side effects being the possibility of vector graphics screenshots.

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Yuri Khan wrote:

>> Mostly I got them with fbgrab and, in X,
>> gnome-screenshot . So I can't redo them.
>> But perhaps they (the programs) can be
>> configured to output SVGs from now on...
>
> Screenshots are bitmaps to begin with.
> They are a lost cause.

What about the output of groff? Can it do EPS
or SVG? No hits in the manpage...

Here is how I get the PDF, PS and PNG:

    ${pdf}: ${src}
       groff -p $< -T pdf > $@
       pdfcrop --margins 12 $@ $@ > /dev/null

    ${ps}: ${src}
       groff -p $< -T ps > $@

    ${png}: ${ps}
       convert -density 400 $< $@

-- 
underground experts united
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Well, well, WELL! :)

You are bound to see a lot before your eyes pop
out of their holes!

But it works exactly as you say!

The speed of producing documents is much
higher, no doubt.

Tho it might be detrimental to the user (or
some of them at least) in the long run as it
focuses on superficial qualities and lend
itself to "snippet programming" where the goal
is the document itself rather than the other
way around which is documenting technology...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Eric S Fraga]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2010 bytes --]

On Thursday,  7 Dec 2017 at 20:02, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Well, well, WELL! :)
>
> You are bound to see a lot before your eyes pop
> out of their holes!

:-)

> But it works exactly as you say!
>
> The speed of producing documents is much
> higher, no doubt.

Yes.  I do all of my technical (and other) writing in org now despite
having used LaTeX directly since the mid-80s.  (and troff before that
;-))

Plus it has the benefit of all the task management and table
manipulation features thrown in.

It does help to know LaTeX as I often do need to bring in some specific
LaTeX directives into the org file but generally org allows me to worry
about content and not formatting (in the same way that LaTeX does when
compared with word processors).

Further, for me, knowing that I can always in the end export the whole
document to LaTeX means I have a fallback should the final document
require significant LaTeX customisations (as some journals
require).  However, this seldom has been required and I have submitted
quite a few articles now that were done completely in org.

And, finally, should it become absolutely necessary (yech), I can export
to ODT and I have a word processor version for those annoying publishers
that require DOC documents.

> Tho it might be detrimental to the user (or
> some of them at least) in the long run as it
> focuses on superficial qualities and lend
> itself to "snippet programming" where the goal
> is the document itself rather than the other
> way around which is documenting technology...

Well, in my case, the goal is often the document.  However, it may also
be the code where each block of code (e.g. function or method) becomes a
separate src block with detailed commentary in normal text (with
structure therefore).  You can then "tangle" the code blocks into the
full source files.  Cf. literate programming.

Example: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucecesf/fresa.html

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.4

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Joost Kremers wrote:

>> The attached file is an org file which has
>> two src blocks, one for generating an image
>> using ditaa and one using dot (graphviz).
>
> You're exporting both to png, which IHMO is
> a no-no when including those files into
> a pdf.

What's wrong with PNG?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Joost Kremers]

On Thu, Dec 07 2017, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Joost Kremers wrote:
>
>>> The attached file is an org file which has
>>> two src blocks, one for generating an image
>>> using ditaa and one using dot (graphviz).
>>
>> You're exporting both to png, which IHMO is
>> a no-no when including those files into
>> a pdf.
>
> What's wrong with PNG?

Well, open the pdf Eric sent and zoom in. :-)

-- 
Joost Kremers
Life has its moments

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Joost Kremers wrote:

>> What's wrong with PNG?
>
> Well, open the pdf Eric sent and zoom in. :-)

... you mean you can see the individual pixels?
So this is the old vector vs. bitmap feud
once again?

If so, I have absolutely nothing
against pixels!

They are like the fibers of wood, which is much
more pleasant to look at than the artificial
perfection of gel coat over glass-fiber.

Down with SVG!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Joost Kremers wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 07 2017, Eric S Fraga wrote:
>
>> The attached file is an org file which has
>> two src blocks, one for generating an image
>> using ditaa and one using dot (graphviz).
>
> You're exporting both to png, which IHMO is
> a no-no when including those files into
> a pdf. I know, it's just an example, but it
> does make me wonder: are ditaa and graphviz
> able to produce pdf output?

The message by Fraga that Kremers cites does
not appear anywhere for me, neither in
gmane.emacs.help nor in gnu.emacs.help .
I don't know if it has something to do with the
attachments but I don't see why it should.
I'll post with attachments to gmane.test as
well as alt.test in a minute. In the mean time
it was a good thing Kremers made this remark
for otherwise I would not have seen this at
all. Here is the message including the
attachments:

    http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2017-12/msg00138.htmlhttp://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2017-12/msg00138.html

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Dan Hitt]

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 2:02 AM, Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> wrote:
>
> On 2017-12-02, at 22:08, Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-12-02, at 21:31, Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The one aspect of org mode (or html) that is a sort of problem is that
>>> the images it shows cannot exist in the file itself, but rather float
>>> in the file system (or presumably served remotely over http).
>>>
>>> The problem here is breakage.  The image can get renamed or deleted,
>>> and then the file.org is broken.
>>>
>>> That's why i would like something where the image is copied directly
>>> into the file.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure you could embed the image in some kind of a source
>> block, so that after executing it, the image file would appear in the
>> current directory.  I could try to make a proof of concept tomorrow if
>> you're interested.
>
> OK, so here's my (quite simplistic, but apparently working well enough)
> solution:
>
> http://mbork.pl/2017-12-04_Embedding_files_in_Org-mode
>
> Hth,
>
> --
> Marcin Borkowski

Awesome!

Thanks Marcin!

So i can archive my image right in my org file, and if it gets lost,
it can be recreated by running the code that M-xorg-insert-file
created.  And it works on my system.

:)

dan

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Dan Hitt wrote:

> Awesome! [...]

I'm a little lost as to this enthusiasm.
Can anyone provide me with a complete example
where it shows it's best side? (The topic
doesn't have to be one that I'm familiar with.)

If the problem is "how do I combine images with
text using Emacs" isn't the answer either LaTeX
(for advanced, but mostly static/unchanging
reference documents and thesis that are often
printed and should look the same everywhere)
*or* HTML (basic, search-engine friendly,
mildly interactive hyper-material for the web)?

Emacs with major modes for LaTeX, Biblatex, the
Makefile, HTML, CSS and whatever else you
might need...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[tomas]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:21:40PM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Dan Hitt wrote:
> 
> > Awesome! [...]
> 
> I'm a little lost as to this enthusiasm.
> Can anyone provide me with a complete example
> where it shows it's best side? (The topic
> doesn't have to be one that I'm familiar with.)
> 
> If the problem is "how do I combine images with
> text using Emacs" isn't the answer either LaTeX
> (for advanced, but mostly static/unchanging
> reference documents and thesis that are often
> printed and should look the same everywhere)
> *or* HTML (basic, search-engine friendly,
> mildly interactive hyper-material for the web)?

The one doesn't exclude the other. The nice thing with
Org mode is that the image is embedded in the Emacs
buffer. And you can generate good-looking LaTeX *and*
HTML as "output formats". Plus, of course, this Babel
thing.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

tomás wrote:

> The one doesn't exclude the other. The nice
> thing with Org mode is that the image is
> embedded in the Emacs buffer.

You mean for your own viewing pleasure?

Or what do you do with the Emacs buffer that
has an image embedded?

> And you can generate good-looking LaTeX *and*
> HTML as "output formats". Plus, of course,
> this Babel thing.

Again, an example would be good...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[tomas]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:00:02PM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomás wrote:
> 
> > The one doesn't exclude the other. The nice
> > thing with Org mode is that the image is
> > embedded in the Emacs buffer.
> 
> You mean for your own viewing pleasure?

Basically, yes. If you have many images, it can be
sometimes less confusing to see them while editing.

> Or what do you do with the Emacs buffer that
> has an image embedded?
> 
> > And you can generate good-looking LaTeX *and*
> > HTML as "output formats". Plus, of course,
> > this Babel thing.
> 
> Again, an example would be good...

Someone already posted an example on how to embed an image
in an Org mode buffer. I embedded an example on how to
embed a source code snippet whose result gets automatically
embedded in the buffer.

I'll let the online documentation speak for itself:

  http://orgmode.org/

If you have more specific questions... go ahead!

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

tomás wrote:

> If you have more specific questions...
> go ahead!

Again, is there an example where this has been
put to good use?

I can provide examples from the LaTeX and HTML
world - the URL in my signature, and this book
in LaTeX:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/borta/book.pdf

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[tomas]

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On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 05:13:21AM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomás wrote:
> 
> > If you have more specific questions...
> > go ahead!
> 
> Again, is there an example where this has been
> put to good use?

Your request is still too unspecific. This is not the place
to write a blog post or a manual. The 'Net is full of those,
and most of them are of a quality I couldn't even hold a
candle to.

Here's one nice example of a chemistry person doing literate
programming with org-mode:

  http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu/blog/2014/02/04/Literate-programming-example-with-Fortran-and-org-mode/

Note that the HTML page itself is generated from an org-mode
source (go to the very bottom and notice the link "org-mode
source").

Perhaps that gives you an idea.

Now of course people have been doing literate programming
for quite a while (the primal example being the TeX and
Metafont sources themselves), but the nice trait with Org
is interactivity. Unless you're God, you're going to test
and play around with those code snippets until you get
them "right". Why not do that directly from the environment
you're going to use to publish them?

Think Don Knuth's WEB, but with a nice editing interface.

That's why it appeals to scientists. If code is any part
of your research, there are definitely better ways than
to cut&paste code snippets and their results into your
article pre-print and repeating all that process each time
you fix a bug.

There are other similar systems around, think IPython
and generally the Notebook interface made popular by
Mathematica.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

tomàs wrote:

> Your request is still too unspecific.

OK, so do you have any suggestions as to how
I can make my request - an example what one can
do with this technology - specific enough?

> Note that the HTML page itself is generated
> from an org-mode source (go to the very
> bottom and notice the link "org-mode
> source").

OK, well, HTML is so simple I don't see any
reason to generate that, the exception being if
you already have the material in some other
format (e.g., a man page that you also want to
make available online to be searchable and
hyperlinked).

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[tomas]

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On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 09:36:10AM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomàs wrote:
> 
> > Your request is still too unspecific.
> 
> OK, so do you have any suggestions as to how
> I can make my request - an example what one can
> do with this technology - specific enough?

Reflect on our interaction:

  Q "What is this good for?"
  A "You can do this, and that"
  Q "Yes, but what can I do with it?"
  A "OK, look at this manual and that blog post"
  Q "Yes, but what can I actually *do* with it?"

If you feel you aren't missing anything, perhaps Org
isn't for you?

> > Note that the HTML page itself is generated
> > from an org-mode source (go to the very
> > bottom and notice the link "org-mode
> > source").
> 
> OK, well, HTML is so simple I don't see any
> reason to generate that, the exception being if
> you already have the material in some other
> format

Comparing the HTML of that page with its Org source
I know which alternative I *don't want* to edit.
Plus the fact that Org executes the code snippets
and inserts their results (text and graphics) for
me -- in the Emacs buffer, and in the HTML output
(and in the LaTeX output, the PDF output and the
LibreOffice output too).

Perhaps there's no use for you in it. There are
people doing their invoices happily in Postscript.
I do prefer LaTeX (and am actually converting to
Org at the moment -- a higher level of abstraction,
if you wish [1]).

Cheers

[1] To be more precise: (La)TeX does have \newcommand,
   thus the basic abstraction mechanism: thus you can
   choose your level of abstraction there. What Org
   offers, beyond a nice interface, is a smoother
   "abstraction protocol".

- -- t
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

tomás wrote:

> If you feel you aren't missing anything,
> perhaps Org isn't for you?

So if I understand it correctly, the technology
enables you to view images in an Emacs buffer,
and to generate HTML with inserts, and those
are the results of code executing, and you can
have that code in the same Emacs buffer?

OK, that is a bit of an interesting exhibition
item, but yeah, why not.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[tomas]

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On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 10:48:21AM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomás wrote:
> 
> > If you feel you aren't missing anything,
> > perhaps Org isn't for you?
> 
> So if I understand it correctly, the technology
> enables you to view images in an Emacs buffer,

No. Emacs can show images in its buffers natively,
you don't need org-mode for that.

Org just gives you a "plain text markup" to more
easily interface to that. Think "living markdown,
without many of its downsides" [1].

> and to generate HTML with inserts, and those
> are the results of code executing, and you can
> have that code in the same Emacs buffer?

You can have code *and* its results in an org
buffer, refresh the result at will, and when
rendering to one of the many export formats have
that consistently handled across all those formats.

> OK, that is a bit of an interesting exhibition
> item, but yeah, why not.

I think the potential dawns to one after playing
a bit with it, which you don't seem interested
in. Nobody will force you ;-)

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

tomás wrote:

> You can have code *and* its results in an org
> buffer, refresh the result at will, and when
> rendering to one of the many export formats
> have that consistently handled across all
> those formats.

So it *is* a tool, an IDE if you will, to
generate data into different formats. OK, no
further questions.

PS. No wonder it was so difficult to find an
    example what good actually ever came out of
    it :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[tomas]

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On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 12:31:52PM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomás wrote:
> 
> > You can have code *and* its results in an org
> > buffer, refresh the result at will, and when
> > rendering to one of the many export formats
> > have that consistently handled across all
> > those formats.
> 
> So it *is* a tool, an IDE if you will, to
> generate data into different formats. OK, no
> further questions.

It's more... and less. For example I have a diary where
I keep the things I've done (and when billable, the time
they've taken me). It's basically a long strip of text,
so Emacs was the obvious choice.

Of course, since I want to extract information from it
(how many hours did I spend writing mails on Org ;-P
I'd like for it to have *some* loose formal structure:
not too much (I'm lazy), not too little (I don't want
my extract routine to bust every other time).

Org mode it is. No export to anything, but links into
projects, some source snippets... kind of my top-level
directory of life.

> PS. No wonder it was so difficult to find an
>     example what good actually ever came out of
>     it :)

No. It's because you seem to be blind on some eye. 
That may be just because you don't miss what Org might
bring to you, and that would be OK.

For someone who really organizes her live around Org,
go have a look at Sacha Chua's blog.

The point about Org is that many people use it in
many different ways. I think it is what you get when
you marry a lightweight markup language with the
power of Emacs (hint: not an IDE. An IDE is trivial,
Emacs already can that ;-).

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

tomás wrote:

>> So it *is* a tool, an IDE if you will, to
>> generate data into different formats. OK, no
>> further questions.
>
> It's more... and less. For example I have
> a diary where I keep the things I've done

I would just use a plain text buffer for that.

>> PS. No wonder it was so difficult to find an
>> example what good actually ever came out of
>> it :)
>
> No. It's because you seem to be blind on some
> eye. That may be just because you don't miss
> what Org might bring to you, and that would
> be OK.

I have yet to see the one thing it can do for
me that I don't already have. If it can glue
plain text, HTML, LaTeX/PDF and more together,
and provide tools and shortcuts to produce and
convert between formats, this is what I would
call an IDE and I'm not into that as I've yet
to see such a system that does not reduce the
degree of precision and intimacy with which
I can solve such issues directly by
manipulating the material first hand. All such
in-between layers, in my experience, only makes
for fiddling with the IDE, trying to figure out
how to make it do what you want, instead of
fiddling with the material itself which is the
thing and the activity that appeals to me.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[tomas]

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On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 02:44:10PM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomás wrote:
> 
> >> So it *is* a tool, an IDE if you will, to
> >> generate data into different formats. OK, no
> >> further questions.
> >
> > It's more... and less. For example I have
> > a diary where I keep the things I've done
> 
> I would just use a plain text buffer for that.
> 
> >> PS. No wonder it was so difficult to find an
> >> example what good actually ever came out of
> >> it :)
> >
> > No. It's because you seem to be blind on some
> > eye. That may be just because you don't miss
> > what Org might bring to you, and that would
> > be OK.
> 
> I have yet to see the one thing it can do for
> me that I don't already have. If it can glue
> plain text, HTML, LaTeX/PDF and more together,
> and provide tools and shortcuts to produce and
> convert between formats, this is what I would
> call an IDE

Note that if you are *just* into converting
between formats, there are other, better tools
(pandoc comes to mind; I think the Org exporters
sometimes use it as a backend, but I might be
wrong).

>        and I'm not into that as I've yet
> to see such a system that does not reduce the
> degree of precision and intimacy with which
> I can solve such issues directly by
> manipulating the material first hand. All such
> in-between layers, in my experience, only makes
> for fiddling with the IDE, trying to figure out
> how to make it do what you want, instead of
> fiddling with the material itself which is the
> thing and the activity that appeals to me.

The interesting thing about Org is that it
is pretty lightweight. Its native format is
sufficiently near to plain text that you
can decide how much it is allowed to interpose
between you and the material. Perhaps this is
why it's so difficult to describe what it
does.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

tomás wrote:

> Note that if you are *just* into converting
> between formats, there are other, better
> tools (pandoc comes to mind

And the shell tools?

> The interesting thing about Org is that it is
> pretty lightweight.

Is that the interesting thing? If so, I know of
the line editor ed(1). The binary - which
I have as /bin/ed - is only 42K.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2017-12-05, at 14:44, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:

> tomás wrote:
>
>>> So it *is* a tool, an IDE if you will, to
>>> generate data into different formats. OK, no
>>> further questions.
>>
>> It's more... and less. For example I have
>> a diary where I keep the things I've done
>
> I would just use a plain text buffer for that.

Then you wouldn't have things like sparse trees or org-capture.

>>> PS. No wonder it was so difficult to find an
>>> example what good actually ever came out of
>>> it :)
>>
>> No. It's because you seem to be blind on some
>> eye. That may be just because you don't miss
>> what Org might bring to you, and that would
>> be OK.
>
> I have yet to see the one thing it can do for
> me that I don't already have. If it can glue
> plain text, HTML, LaTeX/PDF and more together,
> and provide tools and shortcuts to produce and
> convert between formats, this is what I would
> call an IDE and I'm not into that as I've yet
> to see such a system that does not reduce the
> degree of precision and intimacy with which
> I can solve such issues directly by
> manipulating the material first hand. All such
> in-between layers, in my experience, only makes
> for fiddling with the IDE, trying to figure out
> how to make it do what you want, instead of
> fiddling with the material itself which is the
> thing and the activity that appeals to me.

Me and others mentioned that Org is much more than an authoring tool, so
let's concentrate on this aspect alone now.

I agree that Org is usually not the best choice if you happen to know
LaTeX.  OTOH, how often do you collaborate (as in: co-author
papers/books) with people who don't speak (La)TeX?

Also, one of the nice things about Org-mode exporter (even excluding
other Org features, which are more important to me) is that it is
relatively easy to extend it.  I used that to create educational
materials with tests, exportable to HTML+JS (where they were
interactive) or LaTeX (where they were printable as a "student" version
(no answers) or "teacher" version (with answers)).  Do that in LaTeX (I
mean, with the HTML+JS part).  Good luck.  (Probably possible, but _a
lot_ of work.)

Also, certain aspects of editing are much more enjoyable in Org than in
LaTeX (even with AUCTeX).  Think source code blocks vs. verbatim,
rearranging the structure or embedding todo keywords (i.e., marking
chapters/sections as done or needing further work).  Also, editing
tables in LaTeX syntax is a real pain in the neck (as opposed to Org
tables).

Also, as I have recently mentioned on my blog, you have radio targets,
which would be extremely difficult to do in LaTeX (basically only
possible in LuaLaTeX, at least in a sane way) and impossible to do in
pure HTML (doable with JS, of course, if that's your thing).

And by the way, I think that LaTeX cannot do what my humble snippet does
if the file in question is binary.  (You'd need LuaLaTeX for that, and
I think this is a nice exercise.  It's a pity I didn't have that idea
when my friend, who wrote a book on LuaLaTeX, asked me about possible
use examples.)

* * *

I would suggest resisting the temptation to form opinions without
spending a few minutes on research first.

Best,

--
Marcin Borkowski

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Marcin Borkowski wrote:

> I agree that Org is usually not the best
> choice if you happen to know LaTeX. OTOH, how
> often do you collaborate (as in: co-author
> papers/books) with people who don't speak
> (La)TeX?

Well, it is underground *experts* united...

> Also, certain aspects of editing are much
> more enjoyable in Org than in LaTeX

Are you kidding me? :) If it weren't for the
insane pleasure and perfectionist potential of
typing and editing LaTeX I wouldn't do it for
one second!

And that is the reason some of your students
probably spend as much time on typesetting
their papers as they do on the research
itself...

> (doable with JS, of course, if that's your
> thing).

Ha ha.

> And by the way, I think that LaTeX cannot do
> what my humble snippet does if the file in
> question is binary. (You'd need LuaLaTeX for
> that, and I think this is a nice exercise.
> It's a pity I didn't have that idea when my
> friend, who wrote a book on LuaLaTeX, asked
> me about possible use examples.)

I have no experience with such "interactive
documents". I'm too old-school for that. But if
But granted I have no idea how to do any of
that in either LaTeX or any combination of
technology with HTML.

> I would suggest resisting the temptation to
> form opinions without spending a few minutes
> on research first.

Just a few minutes? Because it feels I just
spent half the day talking about it!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Rusi]

On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 5:21:28 PM UTC+5:30, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 12:31:52PM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> > tomás wrote:
> > 
> > > You can have code *and* its results in an org
> > > buffer, refresh the result at will, and when
> > > rendering to one of the many export formats
> > > have that consistently handled across all
> > > those formats.
> > 
> > So it *is* a tool, an IDE if you will, to
> > generate data into different formats. OK, no
> > further questions.
> 
> It's more... and less. 

Its an IDE; its a spreadsheet; its… whatever

An example of using org-emacs to edit python source when
spreadsheet functionality is desired
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/comp.lang.python/dV84Id4E2kM/discussion

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2017-12-05, at 12:31, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:

> tomás wrote:
>
>> You can have code *and* its results in an org
>> buffer, refresh the result at will, and when
>> rendering to one of the many export formats
>> have that consistently handled across all
>> those formats.
>
> So it *is* a tool, an IDE if you will, to
> generate data into different formats. OK, no
> further questions.

As I said, this is _one_ of the many aspects of Org-mode.

--
Marcin Borkowski

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Rusi]

On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 3:33:57 PM UTC+5:30, tomas wrote:
> I think the potential dawns to one after playing
> a bit with it, which you don't seem interested
> in. Nobody will force you ;-)

😉

And to the OP's:

> Wow, i mean, just wow.

> I have to think about this for a few days :) :) . . . . .

I will suggest:
Forget about emacs and even org mode for a while and study the world
of "reproducible research"
[Original author of babel: https://www.jstatsoft.org/article/view/v046i03/v46i03.pdf
Much other stuff on youtube etc]

And if you are more a "by-example" person than a concept person and
are familiar with the jupyter system:
What jupyter gives you by way of living in the browser, emacs+org+babel gives
by way of living inside emacs

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Rusi wrote:

> And if you are more a "by-example" person
> than a concept person and are familiar with
> the jupyter system: What jupyter gives you by
> way of living in the browser, emacs+org+babel
> gives by way of living inside emacs

Many people who live in Emacs, or at least live
their computer lives there, don't even know
what org+babel is. And it would seem, asking
about it won't help! I don't know what jupyter
is either but "living in the browser" is one of
the more grotesque ideas that ever came out of
the bizarre Windows "95" and Netscape period.
But those who live in Emacs without org+babel
have browsers as well - many.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Kevin Buchs]

Emmanuel,

It seems to me you didn’t get a complete answer to your question of the use
of the org+embedded image. Of course, the OP is the best one to answer, but
here is what I gleaned.

1. OP requested a method to create & edit a document in emasculated that
would include images that were visible during editing and used minimal
markup. Org Filled that need.

2. The OP next requested a way to have a single file document with the
images embedded within that file. Think Microsoft Word documents. Transport
and sharing are two tasks that are simplified with just a single file, but
the OP may have other use cases. It also simplifies the file-system foot
print and “remembering” which image file goes with which document.

3. Marcion (sorry about incorrect spelling) created a quick answer,
although it didn’t fully satisfy the OP requirements. It uses org, which
still requires an independent file for each image, but it now carries Elisp
code to regenerate the images. So now the single file contains everything
you need to view and edit, but you need to execute the elisp if the image
files don’t exist. The export to PDF or HTLM are supported by org mode.

Kevin Buchs
(My master org-mode file is over 3 MB and contains all my notes for work
and personal life)

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Kevin Buchs wrote:

> It seems to me you didn’t get a complete
> answer to your question of the use of the
> org+embedded image. Of course, the OP is the
> best one to answer, but here is what
> I gleaned.
>
> 1. OP requested a method to create & edit
> a document in emasculated that would include
> images that were visible during editing and
> used minimal markup. Org Filled that need.
>
> 2. The OP next requested a way to have
> a single file [...]

OK, so now it is a word processor as well!

This is for the "in-between document" which is
too advanced to be plain text, but not advanced
enough to be LaTeX/PDF. Well, I guess I'm
occupational damaged by all the programming so
even text production I see in binary only...

And a tar as mentioned. But a tar isn't exactly
"a single file". Actually it is just a box that
opens and closes. And when it opens, there are
still the individual files. As for me, I prefer
individual files for the same reasons in the
previous or so post, with that you can be as
close as possible to the material and operate
on any part directly.

There are many shell tools that operate on
those files. Do they operate on Org-mode files
as well? Didn't think so. I provide a zsh
example function last that converts from PNGs
to PDFs. That way, I have more control even tho
Org-mode can do the same. It is just
different styles.

png2pdf () {
    local png=$1
    local name=${png:r}

    local pnm=${name}.pnm
    pngtopnm $png > $pnm

    local ps=${name}.ps
    pnmtops $pnm > $ps

    ps2pdf-crop $ps
}

ps2pdf-crop () {
    local ps=$1
    local name=${ps:r}

    local final_pdf=${name}.pdf
    local large_pdf=${name}-large.pdf

    ps2pdf $ps $large_pdf
    pdfcrop --margins 12 $large_pdf $final_pdf
}

### http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/.zsh/pdf-img

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Dan Hitt]

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 6:49 AM, Kevin Buchs <kevin.buchs@gmail.com> wrote:
> Emmanuel,
>
> It seems to me you didn’t get a complete answer to your question of the use
> of the org+embedded image. Of course, the OP is the best one to answer, but
> here is what I gleaned.
>
> 1. OP requested a method to create & edit a document in emasculated that
> would include images that were visible during editing and used minimal
> markup. Org Filled that need.
>
> 2. The OP next requested a way to have a single file document with the
> images embedded within that file. Think Microsoft Word documents. Transport
> and sharing are two tasks that are simplified with just a single file, but
> the OP may have other use cases. It also simplifies the file-system foot
> print and “remembering” which image file goes with which document.
>
> 3. Marcion (sorry about incorrect spelling) created a quick answer,
> although it didn’t fully satisfy the OP requirements. It uses org, which
> still requires an independent file for each image, but it now carries Elisp
> code to regenerate the images. So now the single file contains everything
> you need to view and edit, but you need to execute the elisp if the image
> files don’t exist. The export to PDF or HTLM are supported by org mode.
>
> Kevin Buchs
> (My master org-mode file is over 3 MB and contains all my notes for work
> and personal life)

Hi Kevin,

I think that's a good summary of how the question appeared.

It's not exactly what i had in mind, which is what is in the subject
line: "want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows
(multiple) pictures to be included", but i didn't explain it very
well.

So what i was looking for was a file format which made a provision for
text portions and image portions, and which could also be edited by
emacs.  I did not have Word in mind, although if emacs could edit it i
guess it would fit the bill.  I had in mind something more like IFF
--- the file format family Electronic Arts introduced in the mid 1980s
(sort of like the later RIFF/wav formats).  It has a little header,
and then chunks of data identified by tags and lengths.  I thought
that if something like this existed and was spread around at all, then
emacs might have a mode for editing the text parts.  Conceptually, at
least, such a format would not be hard to display and edit, especially
if you already have the means for showing images; i would expect emacs
to keep track of the headers and adjust them as the sections expanded
or contracted.  That corresponds to your point #1.

And in fact, if anything like that existed, i'd still be interested.

However, Danny Yue (sheepduke) looked at the actual usage i had in
mind (keeping notes) and thought org would be a good match.

I hadn't used org, even though everybody is always talking about it,
because it didn't sound right for me.  I thought it couldn't hold its
own data but would have to make reference to the underlying file
system.  That's your point #2.

But then Marcin said that would be easy to remedy, and then wrote code
to do exactly that, and described it all in a blog post
http://mbork.pl/2017-12-04_Embedding_files_in_Org-mode

And then it emerged, as was known to most of the world except me, that
there are all kinds of things org can do, such as maintaining lists
that you can easily rearrange, having collapsible points, displaying
Greek letters (which you can toggle back and forth between a parsed
and display form), being much nicer to look at than markdown, and of
course being able to execute arbitrary code.

So although i'm still interested in a file format, because i like
binary things in known formats, and i like using the file program to
identify them, the case for org is pretty compelling. :) :)

dan

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Rusi]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 5:14:37 AM UTC+5:30, dan wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 6:49 AM, Kevin Buchs  wrote:
> > Emmanuel,
> >
> > It seems to me you didn’t get a complete answer to your question of the use
> > of the org+embedded image. Of course, the OP is the best one to answer, but
> > here is what I gleaned.
> >
> > 1. OP requested a method to create & edit a document in emasculated that
> > would include images that were visible during editing and used minimal
> > markup. Org Filled that need.
> >
> > 2. The OP next requested a way to have a single file document with the
> > images embedded within that file. Think Microsoft Word documents. Transport
> > and sharing are two tasks that are simplified with just a single file, but
> > the OP may have other use cases. It also simplifies the file-system foot
> > print and “remembering” which image file goes with which document.
> >
> > 3. Marcion (sorry about incorrect spelling) created a quick answer,
> > although it didn’t fully satisfy the OP requirements. It uses org, which
> > still requires an independent file for each image, but it now carries Elisp
> > code to regenerate the images. So now the single file contains everything
> > you need to view and edit, but you need to execute the elisp if the image
> > files don’t exist. The export to PDF or HTLM are supported by org mode.
> >
> > Kevin Buchs
> > (My master org-mode file is over 3 MB and contains all my notes for work
> > and personal life)
> 
> Hi Kevin,
> 
> I think that's a good summary of how the question appeared.

You may also find this thread on the org list useful
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-09/msg00691.html

Starts with a question of someone finding it hard to dig into org
The creator of org — Carsten Dominik — has made a detailed response 
Also I posted an (org-ified!) list of org's features in that thread…
…Would do it somewhat different today…

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Rusi wrote:

> Starts with a question of someone finding it
> hard to dig into org The creator of org —
> Carsten Dominik — has made a detailed
> response Also I posted an (org-ified!) list
> of org's features in that thread… …Would do
> it somewhat different today…

I can't find your post (but Eric S Fraga's).

Regardless of whatever, just read a couple of
them posts: an almost incomprehensible
discussion! I don't know if it is a rare case
or if we could/will read *this* (i.e., today's)
discussion in - let's see -

    6y 2m 9d (total 2262d)

and then think, man, what are those delirous
guys talking about? :)

By the way, I just used a cool program. It is
called time-from [1]. Altho I now prefer
that/the zsh version, which is basically an
advanced interface to ddiff(1), I have an Elisp
version as well [2]. According to the Elisp
version, it is

    6 years, 72 days


"Now isn't the right time to argue about time.
 We don't have the time."
     First Contact (1996) - believe it or not,
                            a good Star Trek
                            movie, with the
                            Picard crew)


[1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/.zsh/time
[2] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/emacs-init/time-my.el

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Rusi]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 10:58:57 AM UTC+5:30, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Rusi wrote:
> 
> > Starts with a question of someone finding it
> > hard to dig into org The creator of org —
> > Carsten Dominik — has made a detailed
> > response Also I posted an (org-ified!) list
> > of org's features in that thread… …Would do
> > it somewhat different today…
> 
> I can't find your post (but Eric S Fraga's).

Thread view
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-09/threads.html#00691

My post:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-09/msg00732.html

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Rusi wrote, in his 2011 post [1]

    * Brainstorming-n-outlining
      TAB and the basic structure navigation and editing features
    * Exporting and Publishing
    *** html export
    *** Odt export
    *** Web publishing
    *** Latex publishing
    *** Presentations
    ***** Lightweight options
      http://orgmode.org/worg/org-configs/org-customization-guide.html
    ***** Beamer
    * Babel
    *** For programming
    *** For teaching programming
    *** For doing science (R)
    *** For scientific publishing (R+Latex)
    * Time/project mgmt (GTD)
    *** Agenda
    *** Time tracking
    *** capture-archive
    *** Journalling
    *** org-habit
    * Tables and spreadsheets
    * Integration with other emacs uses
    *** gnus
    *** bbdb/ org-contacts
    *** firefox (org-protocol)
    *** graphics (R, ditaa...)

That sounds like an IDE to me because it is
basically a long list of technologies that has
nothing to do with, or at least doesn't have to
have anything to do with, Org mode. I never
liked IDEs for the reasons stated in my
previous posts. But I never disliked them just
because they weren't cool. Which of course they
weren't. Now it seems someone has cooked
together an IDE that is much better than
Eclipse, .net, and all that, and it is cool and
Emacsy. To me it is still an IDE tho which is
the reason I don't like it.

[1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-09/msg00732.html

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Eric S Fraga]

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On Wednesday,  6 Dec 2017 at 10:40, Emanuel Berg wrote:

[...]

> To me it is still an IDE tho which is the reason I don't like it.

But then Emacs itself is just an IDE as well?

For me, Emacs is indeed an IDE but one which I can customise to work the
way I want as opposed to how the author of the tool wanted.

Which is why I use gnus and not Thunderbird or mutt, both of which I
have used in the past.  And why I prefer writing in org and not in
Word.  Etc.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.3

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Eric S Fraga wrote:

>> To me it is still an IDE tho which is the
>> reason I don't like it.
>
> But then Emacs itself is just an IDE as well?

Well, yeah, if you did like Rusi - what can you
do with Emacs? You can do Lisp, C, C++, LaTeX,
HTML, etc etc. Then one could say "OK, so it is
an IDE".

It seems like there is an arbitrary line
between an editor intended for programming and
an IDE.

Just when and where do you cross that line?
My proposal is, if it is like Emacs, then it is
an editor intended for programming. If it is
like Org mode, then it is an IDE.

:)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Dan Hitt]

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:23 AM, Rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 10:58:57 AM UTC+5:30, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>> Rusi wrote:
>>
>> > Starts with a question of someone finding it
>> > hard to dig into org The creator of org —
>> > Carsten Dominik — has made a detailed
>> > response Also I posted an (org-ified!) list
>> > of org's features in that thread… …Would do
>> > it somewhat different today…
>>
>> I can't find your post (but Eric S Fraga's).
>
> Thread view
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-09/threads.html#00691
>
> My post:
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-09/msg00732.html

Very, very good, imho.

Especially the fact that it's in org itself, so a person can download
it and work through it, in org.

dan

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Rusi]

On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 8:03:42 AM UTC+5:30, dan wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:23 AM, Rusi  wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 10:58:57 AM UTC+5:30, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> >> Rusi wrote:
> >>
> >> > Starts with a question of someone finding it
> >> > hard to dig into org The creator of org —
> >> > Carsten Dominik — has made a detailed
> >> > response Also I posted an (org-ified!) list
> >> > of org's features in that thread… …Would do
> >> > it somewhat different today…
> >>
> >> I can't find your post (but Eric S Fraga's).
> >
> > Thread view
> > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-09/threads.html#00691
> >
> > My post:
> > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-09/msg00732.html
> 
> Very, very good, imho.
> 
> Especially the fact that it's in org itself, so a person can download
> it and work through it, in org.

Glad it helped.

I’d do it different today if I were rewriting it
- {1,3,5} stars to {1,2,3}
- hyperlinks
- relogic
- Add the concept intro above (Why org?? My take)
- Add an initial navigation section (a la emacs basic tutorial)

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Rusi]

On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 8:03:42 AM UTC+5:30, dan wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:23 AM, Rusi wrote:
> > My post:
> > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-09/msg00732.html
> 
> Very, very good, imho.
> 
> Especially the fact that it's in org itself, so a person can download
> it and work through it, in org.

Slightly more expanded version (way more to go!)
------------ cut here into a file And GO!------------------
#+TITLE: Introduction to Org Mode
* Introduction
This file is an org mode formatted file talking about org mode.
- Physicists call this a hologram
- Astrologers call this palmistry
- [[https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43650/auguries-of-innocence][Poets]] describes it thusly
#+BEGIN_VERSE
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
   And a Heaven in a Wild Flower 
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand 
   And Eternity in an hour

William Blake
#+END_VERSE
- We computer folk call it recursion

** Note: 
It would make no sense
- without emacs running… and
- the reader at least modestly familiar with it

BTW… 
** History
It got written in the first place because someone unfamiliar with emacs was annoyed how difficult he found org mode.

Yes, org mode is a highly non-trivial piece of software; not knowing emacs makes it considerably harder!!

There exist other tutorials for those needing to start with emacs
* Preliminary
** Outline navigation
*** TODO
Fill out this section along the lines of emacs tutorial to show TAB and S-TAB
* Org Philosophy
What is org??
** Outline Mode
Both conceptually and historically org is just outline mode with better key-bindings.  IOW its v v text-y
** … Takes off!
Once the neatness and elegance of pure text with folding and structure-
editing caught on all sorts of stuff started getting added — tags, tables,
TODOs, timestamps, exports, literate programming etc etc — all in pure text.

Brings me to a very central idea of computer science…
** Universality
(aka universal Turing machine etc)

Text is text whether Newton uses it to write Principia, Tolstoy to write
War&Peace; lovers write love-letters and judges write death-warrants — all text.
But unlike the universality of TMs and von Neumann machines the universality of
org is *data-universality*… which makes org a close analogue and even isomorph of…
** Lisp!
Lisp as a programming language is of minor significance (org is written in ELisp)
Lisp as a universal data format (like XML) is a much bigger idea
So in the same way that an S-exp is a structure that
- can be a simple shopping list
- a more complex data list (think csv file)
- the most complex of all ­— a Lisp program

all hinging on the super-simple idea of uniform recursive nesting,
in a like manner org nests pure text (like lisp atoms) into recursive
heading structure 
* Brainstorming
Once 
- TAB, S-TAB for visibility cycling
- Structure navigation (~M-←~, ~M-→~, ~M-↑~, ~M-↓~) 
are grokked, try them out right here!
* Exporting and Publishing
** html export
** Odt export
** Web publishing
** Latex publishing
** Presentations
*** Lightweight options
http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/non-beamer-presentations.html
*** Beamer
* Babel
** For programming
** For teaching programming
** For doing science (R)
** For scientific publishing (R+Latex)
* Time/project mgmt (GTD)
** Agenda
** Time tracking
** capture-archive
** Journalling
** org-habit
* Tables and spreadsheets
* Integration with other emacs uses
** gnus
** bbdb/ org-contacts
** firefox (org-protocol)
** graphics (R, ditaa...)
* Options :noexport:
#+OPTIONS: toc:nil
#+STARTUP: showall
Local Variables:
mode: org
eval: (org-indent-mode)
End:

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Rusi]

On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 8:20:04 PM UTC+5:30, Kevin Buchs wrote:

> 1. OP requested a method to create & edit a document in emasculated that

Freudian slip??
I think I'll bet on spell-(in)correct 😉

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2017-12-05, at 12:36, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:

> Rusi wrote:
>
>> And if you are more a "by-example" person
>> than a concept person and are familiar with
>> the jupyter system: What jupyter gives you by
>> way of living in the browser, emacs+org+babel
>> gives by way of living inside emacs
>
> Many people who live in Emacs, or at least live
> their computer lives there, don't even know
> what org+babel is. And it would seem, asking
> about it won't help! I don't know what jupyter
> is either but "living in the browser" is one of
> the more grotesque ideas that ever came out of
> the bizarre Windows "95" and Netscape period.
> But those who live in Emacs without org+babel
> have browsers as well - many.

Well, why not visit Org-mode website to learn what it is?  As Raman once
said, Org-mode is many things to many people.  For me, it is a way of
notetaking, time tracking, todo list and a few others.

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Marcin Borkowski wrote:

> Well, why not visit Org-mode website to learn
> what it is? As Raman once said, Org-mode is
> many things to many people. For me, it is
> a way of notetaking, time tracking, todo list
> and a few others.

I use plain text for that. I actually have
a todo list in Elisp [1] with a zsh
companion. [2]

[1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/emacs-init/todo-did.el
[2] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/.zsh/todo

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2017-12-05, at 10:48, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:

> tomás wrote:
>
>> If you feel you aren't missing anything,
>> perhaps Org isn't for you?
>
> So if I understand it correctly, the technology
> enables you to view images in an Emacs buffer,
> and to generate HTML with inserts, and those
> are the results of code executing, and you can
> have that code in the same Emacs buffer?
>
> OK, that is a bit of an interesting exhibition
> item, but yeah, why not.

Yes, that, and _a lot_ of other stuff.

Have you ever tried Org-mode?

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Marcin Borkowski wrote:

> Have you ever tried Org-mode?

No.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Eric S Fraga]

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On Tuesday,  5 Dec 2017 at 05:13, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomás wrote:
>
>> If you have more specific questions...
>> go ahead!
>
> Again, is there an example where this has been
> put to good use?

I sometimes have the need to create a self-contained document for
sharing with others.  Using the little snippet of elisp that Marcin
posted allows me to do so quite easily.  Previously, I would need to
create a tar/zip file with all the images.  Very nice solution for my
requirements.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.3

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Eric S Fraga wrote:

> I sometimes have the need to create
> a self-contained document for sharing with
> others. Using the little snippet of elisp
> that Marcin posted allows me to do so quite
> easily. Previously, I would need to create
> a tar/zip file with all the images. Very nice
> solution for my requirements.

The "all in an Emacs buffer" is appealing but
the Achille's Heel is that an Emacs buffer,
compared to a PDF document or HTML website, is
a cup from which only a select few dare
drink...

As for me, it feels like all the wonders
I create already have a minimal audience.
To a huge part, this is a human, not technology
problem. But I don't want to put up even more
palisades. Besides, I have no problem with
LaTeX or HTML. So I always want to use the
biggest thing which still is to my liking.
So far, that has meant small enough things as
it is...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[tomas]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 12:23:13PM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Eric S Fraga wrote:
> 
> > I sometimes have the need to create
> > a self-contained document for sharing with
> > others. Using the little snippet of elisp
> > that Marcin posted allows me to do so quite
> > easily. Previously, I would need to create
> > a tar/zip file with all the images. Very nice
> > solution for my requirements.
> 
> The "all in an Emacs buffer" is appealing but
> the Achille's Heel is that an Emacs buffer,
> compared to a PDF document or HTML website, is
> a cup from which only a select few dare
> drink...

*This* is actually the one interesting point. That
said, even Github (the horrors!) understands Org
syntax. The syntax itself has a few downsides, IMHO,
but it is way cleaner than Markdown with its ugly
HTML escape hatch.

> As for me, it feels like all the wonders
> I create already have a minimal audience.
> To a huge part, this is a human, not technology
> problem. But I don't want to put up even more
> palisades. Besides, I have no problem with
> LaTeX or HTML. So I always want to use the
> biggest thing which still is to my liking.
> So far, that has meant small enough things as
> it is...

The point is that LaTeX (and HTML) are, as
actually used, in a different point in space,
much more concerned with appearance and less
with structure. At least for LaTeX, you might
argue that you can choose that yourself, because
the *mechanism* of abstraction is there, but
success has been modest. As to HTML... a format
mainly in the hands of the W3C (club of the
richest Internet consortia), oh, well. I prefer
to treat that one as write-only.

There's a place for more content-oriented, more
easily editable, more plain-texty language.

And these are Markdown, Python's reStructuredText,
Perl's POD, and many other lightweight markup
languages [1] among which... org comes with a
built-in powerful editor we all love :-)

Cheers

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_markup_language
- -- tomás
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Eric S Fraga]

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On Tuesday,  5 Dec 2017 at 12:23, Emanuel Berg wrote:

[...]

> The "all in an Emacs buffer" is appealing but
> the Achille's Heel is that an Emacs buffer,
> compared to a PDF document or HTML website, is
> a cup from which only a select few dare
> drink...

I am indeed selective with whom I share my cup...  but, in any case, the
point is that not only can I share the org file with somebody I am
collaborating with, I can also export to PDF and HTML from the same
document.  Two birds, one stone!

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.3

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Eric S Fraga wrote:

>> The "all in an Emacs buffer" is appealing
>> but the Achille's Heel is that an Emacs
>> buffer, compared to a PDF document or HTML
>> website, is a cup from which only a select
>> few dare drink...
>
> I am indeed selective with whom I share my
> cup... but, in any case, the point is that
> not only can I share the org file with
> somebody I am collaborating with, I can also
> export to PDF and HTML from the same
> document. Two birds, one stone!

Right, if that indeed produces PDF and HTML one
is happy with - so it will not be a half-baked
compromise - granted, it makes sense.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[tomas]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 02:32:47PM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Eric S Fraga wrote:
> 
> >> The "all in an Emacs buffer" is appealing
> >> but the Achille's Heel is that an Emacs
> >> buffer, compared to a PDF document or HTML
> >> website, is a cup from which only a select
> >> few dare drink...
> >
> > I am indeed selective with whom I share my
> > cup... but, in any case, the point is that
> > not only can I share the org file with
> > somebody I am collaborating with, I can also
> > export to PDF and HTML from the same
> > document. Two birds, one stone!
> 
> Right, if that indeed produces PDF and HTML one
> is happy with - so it will not be a half-baked
> compromise - granted, it makes sense.

And don't forget, the source code is a lightweight
markup more text-oriented folks will be able to
make sense of (as well as they'd make of Markdown
and others). I regularly throw org snippets in
my text mails and no one notices :-)

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

tomás wrote:

> And don't forget, the source code is
> a lightweight markup more text-oriented folks
> will be able to make sense of (as well as
> they'd make of Markdown and others).
> I regularly throw org snippets in my text
> mails and no one notices :-)

Then why do it at all?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[tomas]

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On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 02:53:52PM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomás wrote:
> 
> > And don't forget, the source code is
> > a lightweight markup more text-oriented folks
> > will be able to make sense of (as well as
> > they'd make of Markdown and others).
> > I regularly throw org snippets in my text
> > mails and no one notices :-)
> 
> Then why do it at all?

Because it makes life easier for me. An example: if I want to
show to someone what "df -h" does on my box, I just open an org
mode buffer and do:

  This is the output of =df= on my box
  #+BEGIN_SRC sh :results raw drawer
    df -h
  #+END_SRC
  
  #+RESULTS:
  :RESULTS:
  Filesystem                Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
  udev                      7.7G     0  7.7G   0% /dev
  tmpfs                     1.6G  3.1M  1.6G   1% /run
  /dev/mapper/trotzki-root   19G  376M   17G   3% /
  /dev/mapper/trotzki-usr    73G  2.6G   67G   4% /usr
  tmpfs                     5.0M     0  5.0M   0% /run/lock
  tmpfs                     3.1G   24M  3.1G   1% /run/shm
  /dev/sda1                 939M   38M  854M   5% /boot
  /dev/mapper/trotzki-home  640G  137G  471G  23% /home
  /dev/mapper/trotzki-var   183G  408M  173G   1% /var
  :END:

Note that the whole thing between :RESULTS: and :END: was inserted
by org mode, I just had to type C-c C-c in the source code snippet
(and confirm that yes, I want this shell snippet executed in my
box). No more cutting&pasting from a terminal session and things
like that (and I can just redo the whole thing once I've saved
that buffer somewhere -- that's what others are talking about
repeatable research).

As that's Emacs, I can run it remotely on another box (courtesy
of Tramp), yadda, yadda. When I do remote sysadmin on other boxes,
I often use org to document what I've done and why.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

tomás wrote:

>> Then why do it at all?
>
> Because it makes life easier for me.
> An example: if I want to show to someone what
> "df -h" does on my box, I just open an org
> mode buffer and do:
>
>   This is the output of =df= on my box
> #+BEGIN_SRC sh :results raw drawer df -h
> #+END_SRC

Here is mine:

    $ df -h

    Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
    /dev/root        15G   12G  1.5G  89% /
    devtmpfs        458M     0  458M   0% /dev
    tmpfs           462M     0  462M   0% /dev/shm
    tmpfs           462M  6.8M  455M   2% /run
    tmpfs           5.0M  4.0K  5.0M   1% /run/lock
    tmpfs           462M     0  462M   0% /sys/fs/cgroup
    /dev/mmcblk0p1   60M   22M   39M  37% /boot
    tmpfs            93M  4.0K   93M   1% /run/user/1001
    /dev/sda2        25G   24G  1.1G  96% /mnt-disk

Try the new shell and message-mode buffer - now
with 0% Org!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

tomás wrote:

> Because it makes life easier for me.
> An example: if I want to show to someone what
> "df -h" does on my box, I just open an org
> mode buffer and do:
>
> This is the output of =df= on my box
> #+BEGIN_SRC sh :results raw drawer df -h
> #+END_SRC

Or:

    C-u M-! df -h RET


     .-~ with a special flavor for you ~-.


-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

YT wrote:

> tomás wrote:
>
>> Because it makes life easier for me.
>> An example: if I want to show to someone
>> what "df -h" does on my box, I just open an
>> org mode buffer and do: This is the output
>> of =df= on my box #+BEGIN_SRC sh :results
>> raw drawer df -h #+END_SRC
>
> Or:
>
>     C-u M-! df -h RET

Yet another way. I didn't bother with the fancy
interactive interface of `shell-command'.
But you could hook it to the output buffer,
then yank that, and kill it, if anyone cannot
live without autocompletion and won't have
code duplication.

    (defun insert-command-and-output (cmd)
      (interactive "sshell command: ")
      (when cmd
        (insert (format "$ %s\n\n" cmd))
        (shell-command cmd t)
        (goto-char (mark)) ))
    (defalias 'icao 'insert-command-and-output)

$ df -h

Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/root        15G   12G  1.5G  89% /
devtmpfs        458M     0  458M   0% /dev
tmpfs           462M     0  462M   0% /dev/shm
tmpfs           462M  6.8M  455M   2% /run
tmpfs           5.0M  4.0K  5.0M   1% /run/lock
tmpfs           462M     0  462M   0% /sys/fs/cgroup
/dev/mmcblk0p1   60M   22M   39M  37% /boot
tmpfs            93M     0   93M   0% /run/user/1001
/dev/sda2        25G   24G  1.1G  96% /mnt-disk

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[tomas]

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On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 06:55:11AM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> YT wrote:
> 
> > tomás wrote:

Sigh.

> > Or:
> >
> >     C-u M-! df -h RET
> 
> Yet another way [...]

OK. Now do that with a snippet of C code. Or SQL.
Or R. Or dotty (whose result gets inserted as an
SVG image). All with an uniform interface.

Emanuel, I have the impression you've long reached
the conclusion Org isn't for you. That's fine, there
are many tools out there which aren't "for one" --
personally I hate Eclipse and web interfaces; but if
someone's fluent with them, more power to them.

But then I see no sense in this long-winded discussion:
if your mind is made up, I'm out [1]. I'm willing to come
back whenever you actually do your part, read some of
the excellent material out there and get your feet wet.

With some kind of tools, there's no other way of
understanding than to loop a couple of cycles around
"watch others doing it, try yourself, on fail repeat",
or something.

Cheers

[1] Don't take this personally, as it isn't meant
   personally. I do appreciate you, but my loop
   detector kicked in :-)

- -- tomás
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

tomás wrote:

> Emanuel Berg wrote:
>
>> YT wrote:
>> 
>>> tomás wrote:
>>>
> But then I see no sense in this long-winded
> discussion: if your mind is made up, I'm out

Not so fast! Because... now *I* am out!

(looks around) Did I make it before you?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

tomás wrote:

> I'm willing to come back

It seems I made it back before you, as well.
Final (?) words, in all of this discussion
someone might have gotten the impression
I think Org mode to be bad, as in bad
technology. On the contrary it seems to be an
amazing project at a very high skill level.
So it is a matter of style, rather.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Rusi]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 3:34:05 PM UTC+5:30, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> On the contrary it seems to be an
> amazing project at a very high skill level.
> So it is a matter of style, rather.

Progress!¡!

> That sounds like an IDE to me…

Dunno where you get this ‘IDE’ notion from.
I would guess that org mode is the fastest growing part of the emacs-ecosystem
And I doubt whether any of its tens of thousands of users would call it an IDE!

What is org?? My take…

1. Both conceptually and historically org is just outline mode with better key-bindings.  IOW its v v text-y

2. Once the neatness and elegance of pure text with folding and structure-
editing caught on all sorts of stuff started getting added — tags, tables, 
TODOs, timestamps, exports, literate programming etc etc — all in pure text.

Brings me to a very central idea of computer science…

3. Universality (aka universal Turing machine etc)
Text is text whether Newton uses it to write Principia, Tolstoy to write
War&Peace; lovers write love-letters and judges write death-warrants — all text.
But unlike the universality of TMs and von Neumann machines the universality of
org is *data-universality*… which makes org a close analogue and even isomorph of…

4. Lisp!
Lisp as a programming language is of minor significance (org is written in ELisp)
Lisp as a universal data format (like XML) is a much bigger idea
So in the same way that an S-exp is a structure that
- can be a simple shopping list
- a more complex data list (think csv file)
- the most complex of all ­— a Lisp program

all hinging on the super-simple idea of uniform recursive nesting,
in a like manner org nests pure text (like lisp atoms) into recursive 
heading structure

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Rusi wrote:

> 2. Once the neatness and elegance of pure
> text with folding and structure- editing
> caught on all sorts of stuff started getting
> added — tags, tables, TODOs, timestamps,
> exports, literate programming etc etc — all
> in pure text.

So yes, it is a word processor and/or a plain
text markup scheme. They sound contradictory
entities to me but perhaps that can/has be
solved somehow? Whyever anyone would want to do
that...

> 4. Lisp! Lisp as a programming language is of
> minor significance

?

Lisp is the Pythagorean theorem of programming.
It is the oldest of programming languages still
in use save for perhaps Fortran which cannot be
compared to Lisp, obviously.

    Fortran  1957  Formula Translation
    Lisp     1958  CL 1984, Elisp 1985; "list processing language"
    Cobol    1959  Common business-oriented language

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Eric S Fraga]

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On Wednesday,  6 Dec 2017 at 11:04, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> So it is a matter of style, rather.

Indeed!

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.3

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Yuri Khan]

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 8:38 PM,  <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

> And don't forget, the source code is a lightweight
> markup more text-oriented folks will be able to
> make sense of (as well as they'd make of Markdown
> and others). I regularly throw org snippets in
> my text mails and no one notices :-)

That’s going to change if you start throwing in base64-encoded images
with that, though :)

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[tomas]

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On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 09:42:18PM +0700, Yuri Khan wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 8:38 PM,  <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
> 
> > And don't forget, the source code is a lightweight
> > markup more text-oriented folks will be able to
> > make sense of [...]

[...]

> That’s going to change if you start throwing in base64-encoded images
> with that, though :)

Their word documents look similar to me. Tit for tat, I'd say ;-D

But yes, I know what you mean, and try to choose judiciously.

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2017-12-05, at 15:42, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 8:38 PM,  <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
>
>> And don't forget, the source code is a lightweight
>> markup more text-oriented folks will be able to
>> make sense of (as well as they'd make of Markdown
>> and others). I regularly throw org snippets in
>> my text mails and no one notices :-)
>
> That’s going to change if you start throwing in base64-encoded images
> with that, though :)

;-)

-- 
Marcin Borkowski

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Eric S Fraga]

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On Tuesday,  5 Dec 2017 at 14:32, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Eric S Fraga wrote:

[...]

>> I am indeed selective with whom I share my
>> cup... but, in any case, the point is that
>> not only can I share the org file with
>> somebody I am collaborating with, I can also
>> export to PDF and HTML from the same
>> document. Two birds, one stone!
>
> Right, if that indeed produces PDF and HTML one
> is happy with - so it will not be a half-baked
> compromise - granted, it makes sense.

Yes, the PDF and HTML, out of the box, is decent.  For very specific
formatting aspects, there is a straightforward mechanism for escaping to
a specific target, e.g. LaTeX with
@@latex:\myspeciallatexcommand{arg1,arg2}@@ inline.

For me, the combination of an authoring tool with integrated project
management tools wins the day.  But also the lightweight nature of the
markup making it so easy to write beamer presentations is a bonus.

But, YMMV, of course.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.3

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2017-12-04, at 22:21, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:

> Dan Hitt wrote:
>
>> Awesome! [...]
>
> I'm a little lost as to this enthusiasm.
> Can anyone provide me with a complete example
> where it shows it's best side? (The topic
> doesn't have to be one that I'm familiar with.)
>
> If the problem is "how do I combine images with
> text using Emacs" isn't the answer either LaTeX
> (for advanced, but mostly static/unchanging
> reference documents and thesis that are often
> printed and should look the same everywhere)
> *or* HTML (basic, search-engine friendly,
> mildly interactive hyper-material for the web)?
>
> Emacs with major modes for LaTeX, Biblatex, the
> Makefile, HTML, CSS and whatever else you
> might need...

No, I think you got it wrong.  This does not solve the problem
LaTeX/HTML solves.  This solves (Org-way) the problem that tar solves.

Best,

--
Marcin Borkowski

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Emanuel Berg]

Marcin Borkowski wrote:

> This solves (Org-way) the problem that
> tar solves.

Here, is tar "tape archive" or the
hydrocarbon liquid?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2017-12-04, at 21:35, Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Awesome!
>
> Thanks Marcin!
>
> So i can archive my image right in my org file, and if it gets lost,
> it can be recreated by running the code that M-xorg-insert-file
> created.  And it works on my system.

You're welcome!

Fun fact: it took me less than 30 minutes to find the relevant Elisp
functions, code and write the blog post.

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Dan Espen]

Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 5:06 AM, Daian YUE <sheepduke@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 2017-12-02 08:02, Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> For the notes i keep, sometimes i would like to sometimes include a
>>> picture (jpg or png or maybe some other format).
>>>
>>> emacs seems to have no problem displaying a picture but i would like
>>> to add words to it.
>>>
>>> So reading the file in emacs would be something like looking at html,
>>> but i would prefer it something to be hot-editable, just like text
>>> files are.
>>>
>>> That is, i would prefer not to have any markup in the file whatsoever,
>>> just a block of text, then a picture, then more text, then another
>>> picture, and so on.  Perhaps an unprintable character could divide the
>>> sections, and each section type could be recognized as either starting
>>> with the magic words of a jpg or png and be presented as a picture, or
>>> otherwise, presented as utf-8.  (So i guess the unprintable character
>>> would be markup, but certainly i wouldn't want something as lengthy as
>>> <img> to appear in the file.)
>>>
>>> Ideally, emacs would recognize the type of file it was by a
>>> mode-defining like at the top, like -*- text -*- (except, of course,
>>> not text).
>>>
>>> Does any file format/mode combo like this exist?
>>>
>>> TIA for any clues!! :)
>>>
>>> dan
>>
>> Hi Dan,
>>
>> I think Org Mode is what you are looking for.
>>
>> From what you want, it contains following features:
>> - pure text based
>> - Emacs built-in, very easy to works with
>> - can embed pictures easily [[some_picture.jpg]]
>> - has many inline declaration for controlling titles, code blocks etc
>> - can be exported to Makrdown, HTML, etc etc
>>
>> I personally used it to generate development documentation (pictures
>> included) in a small project.
>>
>> It is really handy to edit org file in Emacs, then "C-e h h" to generate
>> HTML. The style of generated HTML file can be modified by external CSS
>> file.
>>
>> Also, many people (including me) use Org Mode for task
>> scheduling/management, taking notes, writing documentations, blogs, etc.
>>
>> I highly recommend you to give it a try. :-)
>>
>> Danny
>>
>
> Thanks Danny!!
>
> People talk a lot about org-mode but i had never actually used it
> until you recommended it.
>
> It looks very useful, and it can indeed show images
> (org-redisplay-inline-images).  So i appreciate your introducing it to
> me.
>
> The one aspect of org mode (or html) that is a sort of problem is that
> the images it shows cannot exist in the file itself, but rather float
> in the file system (or presumably served remotely over http).
>
> The problem here is breakage.  The image can get renamed or deleted,
> and then the file.org is broken.
>
> That's why i would like something where the image is copied directly
> into the file.
>
> Thanks again for the suggestion, which has an appearance close to what
> i want, and which will be useful independently of whether i can
> actually embed an image inside a file in a way emacs can see and
> display it inline.

If your images are SVG, HTML lets you code images inline.

<https://www.w3schools.com/html/html5_svg.asp>

Emacs shr.el shows SVGs.

Especially if your images are line drawings, SVG is pretty neat.
Of course SVG is useless for photos.

-- 
Dan Espen

Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

[Dan Hitt]

On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:

> If your images are SVG, HTML lets you code images inline.
>
> <https://www.w3schools.com/html/html5_svg.asp>
>
> Emacs shr.el shows SVGs.
>
> Especially if your images are line drawings, SVG is pretty neat.
> Of course SVG is useless for photos.
>
> --
> Dan Espen

Thanks Dan!

That's also useful info that i was ignorant of (although it makes
sense in 20-20 hindsight).

My pictures are not SVG, but this is useful for other cases i think.

dan