From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Bob Proulx Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Reply to list [was: Different key maps in different dired buffers] Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 13:41:01 -0600 Message-ID: <20160604130130655599709@bob.proulx.com> References: <20160527070959.GB27615@tuxteam.de> <83mvnc0vze.fsf@gnu.org> <83pos7z6gv.fsf@gnu.org> <86zir1n347.fsf@student.uu.se> <8660tpmztw.fsf@student.uu.se> <87porxkl2r.fsf@quux> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1465069315 29468 80.91.229.3 (4 Jun 2016 19:41:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 19:41:55 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jun 04 21:41:44 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1b9HS4-0002Io-6N for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 21:41:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33896 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1b9HS0-0003eu-38 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 15:41:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59106) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1b9HRU-0003eg-7Y for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 15:41:10 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1b9HRP-0005Kd-Jx for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 15:41:07 -0400 Original-Received: from havoc.proulx.com ([96.88.95.61]:57159) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1b9HRP-0005KY-An for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 15:41:03 -0400 Original-Received: from joseki.proulx.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by havoc.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B636632 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 13:41:02 -0600 (MDT) Original-Received: from hysteria.proulx.com (hysteria.proulx.com [192.168.230.119]) by joseki.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4110E21237 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 13:41:02 -0600 (MDT) Original-Received: by hysteria.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0767D2DC4F; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 13:41:01 -0600 (MDT) Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87porxkl2r.fsf@quux> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 96.88.95.61 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:110304 Archived-At: Dmitry Alexandrov wrote: > Emanuel Berg writes: > > If we had software for such forums - I don't know if we do? - it > > would be a good thing if that software included an interface to > > the traffic here - i.e., yet another gateway! >=20 > Gmane actually *does* allow posting trough a web interface. However, I > doubt that anyone uses it =E2=80=94 it=E2=80=99s pretty ugly, imho, and= requires solving > a captcha. Really? I thought most people that used Gmane used it for posting through their interface. No? I guess it is really hard to tell by anyone outside of Gmane. But I thought that was one of the advantages of using it. That one need not have any other connection. Plus I know that during the recent network connection problems to the Boston datacenter site that much mail from Gmane was backlogged unable to transmit messages. All of those came through Gmane so there are at least some users using it. > By the way, so far as we are discussing techniques of using mailing > lists, let me turn your attention, that your messages are systematicall= y > appear in =E2=80=98gmane.emacs.help=E2=80=99 as replies to non-existent= messages, thus > breaking the tree. That might be some bug of Gmane, of course, however > the archive of GNU Mailman [0] shares this views. >=20 > [0] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2016-06/threads.h= tml Yes. I have tried to determine why this is before. I don't think it is on Emanuel's end. It appears with other posters too. Emanual is just one of the more prolific posters and so we see it more often with his posts. :-) Plus when the messages do thread they thread to the parent of the message and not the message being responded to. And of course the unusual software in the path is Gnus, News, the news2mail gateway, any of the three of which could be causing problems. I think it is the Stanford newsgroup gateway causing the problem. Details follow for those who want to skip now. Here was my message: From: Bob Proulx References: <57473688.4020503@gmail.com> <20160527070959.GB27615@tuxteam.de> <83mvnc0vze.fsf@gnu.org> <83pos7z6gv.fsf@gnu.org> <86zir1n347.fsf@student.uu.se> In-Reply-To: <86zir1n347.fsf@student.uu.se> Message-ID: <20160603195221435910074@bob.proulx.com> And here was the follow-up message: From: Emanuel Berg Path: usenet.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!= newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed9.news.xs4all.nl!feeder1.xsusenet.com!nntpspoo= l.opticnetworks.net!nntpspool01.opticnetworks.net!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-fo= r-mail Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:217984 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4 (gnu/linux) References: <57473688.4020503@gmail.com> <20160527070959.GB27615@tuxteam.de> <83mvnc0vze.fsf@gnu.org> <83pos7z6gv.fsf@gnu.org> <86zir1n347.fsf@student.uu.se> Message-ID: <8660tpmztw.fsf@student.uu.se> There is no In-Reply-To on the follow-up. Only the References header can be used for threading. Checking through the references in the place of my message 20160603195221435910074@bob.proulx.com I see mailman.789.1465006376.1216.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org instead. That appears to be the point where threading gets broken. Something appears to have converted one message id into another one. But this isn't only Emanuel. Here is another example of the same which has neither Emanuel nor myself in the conversation. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2016-06/threads.html#= 00084 The original posting has: From: "Tory S. Anderson" Message-ID: <874manawag.fsf@torysa-worldsendless.byu.edu> The follow-up with the broken threading has: From: Marco Wahl Path: usenet.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!= newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed8.news.xs4all.nl!feeder.erje.net!1.eu.feeder.e= rje.net!weretis.net!feeder4.news.weretis.net!news.mixmin.net!aioe.org!.PO= STED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Message-ID: <84vb33j93h.fsf@gmail.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ghePZ09roGjaAbQfu6+I9w.user.gioia.aioe.org User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:217524 References: Same thing. The missing message-id has been replaced with a non-matching one. In these messages I see two things in common. One is that both came through the news gateway. Another is that both users posted using Gnus. Can we find an example that is broken that only uses one of them to eliminate the other as a problem? At this moment I suspect the gateway. But that is always my suspicion bias since it is outside of our control. Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen has several in this thread. But my mail was in there too and I am looking for something without. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2016-05/threads.html#= 00092 Here is one. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2016-04/msg00019.html Original: From: Shiyao Ma Message-ID: Follow-up: From: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" Path: usenet.stanford.edu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not= -for-mail Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:217422 Again Gnus and News. Can't tell. Ah! Here is one. Another example of a broken mail link. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2016-02/threads.html#= 00390 Original: From: Eli Zaretskii Message-Id: <83mvqmd1mo.fsf@gnu.org> References: <2b5da096-ab4d-4803-9a62-dbed5c036514@googlegroups.com> Follow-up: From: Vladimir Panteleev Message-ID: <9f89c7fe-19e2-4d24-89f9-630d830f8b67@googlegroups.com> Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:217048 References: <2b5da096-ab4d-4803-9a62-dbed5c036514@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: G2/1.0 What User-Agent is represented by "G2/1.0"? Since that isn't Gnus it would seem to let Gnus off the hook. The commonality is the Stanford news gateway. The converted message id is of the same form. Looks to be the same problem. Does not include Gnus so seems to implicate the Stanford newsgroup gateway. Bob