no C-h i m emacs ??

no C-h i m emacs ??

[Harry Putnam]

With emacs24-lucid installed, I can find no info files for emacs-24

/usr/share/info   IXNEY for emacs

/usr/local/share/ IXNEY for info

So with all this installed:

aps emacs|grep ^i       
i   emacs-goodies-el        - Miscellaneous add-ons for Emacs           
i A emacs24-bin-common      - GNU Emacs editor's shared, architecture de
i A emacs24-common          - GNU Emacs editor's shared, architecture in
i   emacs24-el              - GNU Emacs LISP (.el) files                
i   emacs24-lucid           - GNU Emacs editor (with Lucid GUI support) 
i A emacsen-common          - Common facilities for all emacsen      

I still have no emacs-info files.

Checking them all with dpkg -L shows no main info/emacs installed.

/usr/share/info/dir has no entry for emacs other than:

* Emacs FAQ: (emacs-24/efaq).   Frequently Asked Questions about Emacs.
* Emacs-Goodies-el: (emacs-goodies-el).
* Emacs FAQ: (emacs-24/efaq).   Frequently Asked Questions about Emacs.
* Emacs-w3m: (emacs-w3m).       An Emacs interface to w3m
* Emacs-w3m-ja: (emacs-w3m-ja). An Emacs interface to w3m (Japanese)

So apparently I'm missing something here.

Re: no C-h i m emacs ??

[Harry Putnam]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

whoops... sorry... wrong newsgroup.. should have been ...debian.user

Re: no C-h i m emacs ??

[Glenn Morris]

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2014-10/msg00368.html

In particular:
   
   consider adding a comment to one of the several Debian bug reports
   that exist about this issue, eg
     http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=685933
   to encourage them to improve the way they handle this, which has been
   confusing Emacs users on Debian for 7+ years now.

[IMO: if Debian want to rip out the manuals, they need to replace them
with stubs that say where to get the real manuals.]

Re: no C-h i m emacs ??

[Bob Proulx]

Harry Putnam wrote:
> So with all this installed:
> 
> aps emacs|grep ^i       
> i   emacs-goodies-el        - Miscellaneous add-ons for Emacs           
> i A emacs24-bin-common      - GNU Emacs editor's shared, architecture de
> i A emacs24-common          - GNU Emacs editor's shared, architecture in
> i   emacs24-el              - GNU Emacs LISP (.el) files                
> i   emacs24-lucid           - GNU Emacs editor (with Lucid GUI support) 
> i A emacsen-common          - Common facilities for all emacsen      
> 
> I still have no emacs-info files.

I posted about this recently.  Please see this:

  http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2014-07/msg00140.html

To install the info files enable non-free in sources.list and then
install the emacs24-common-non-dfsg package.

Bob

Re: no C-h i m emacs ??

[Bob Proulx]

Glenn Morris wrote:
> In particular:
>    
>    consider adding a comment to one of the several Debian bug reports
>    that exist about this issue, eg
>      http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=685933
>    to encourage them to improve the way they handle this, which has been
>    confusing Emacs users on Debian for 7+ years now.

Alternatively if GNU were to release the info pages without the
requirement of invariant sections then those docs could be packaged in
the free section.

> [IMO: if Debian want to rip out the manuals, they need to replace them
> with stubs that say where to get the real manuals.]

This is almost exactly the argument that GNU has used for years
against Debian.  For years GNU has argued that Debian promotes nonfree
software for exactly this issue.  And here it would exactly the same
thing with parties reversed.  Oh the irony!

It is sad that two of the most freedom promoting organizations are at
opposite ends of this documentation issue.  Both are principled.  But
with slightly different principles.  Unfortunately users are caught in
the middle between them.  Sigh.

Bob

manual activism (was: Re: no C-h i m emacs ??)

[Emanuel Berg]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:

> It is sad that two of the most freedom promoting
> organizations are at opposite ends of this
> documentation issue. Both are principled. But with
> slightly different principles. Unfortunately users
> are caught in the middle between them. Sigh.

Sad indeed. To me it looks like two parties are so
principled they put down their principles in extensive
writing, and those got too complicated, and eventually
tangled up. So now they are - at least here -
contra-productive.

Anyway, I have some book-creating skills, both groff
and LaTeX and the physical side to it. So, can I print
the Emacs or Gnus manual, make a book of it, and then
take it to the libraries of my city and insist they
put it somewhere so people can borrow it?

Would that be legal?

If it isn't, I don't care for such a stupid law, but
the libraries would not accept "illegal" books.

-- 
underground experts united

Re: no C-h i m emacs ??

[Glenn Morris]

Bob Proulx wrote:

> Alternatively if GNU were to release the info pages without the
> requirement of invariant sections then those docs could be packaged in
> the free section.

As you know, that is a fundamental policy disagreement that is just
never going to change.

Whereas providing stub info pages is a trivial technical matter that
would probably take about 5 minutes. Just make a package that conflicts
with the real info pages. I don't know, I'm not a Debian packager.
I'm sure it's not impossible.

But obviously this is a very old topic and talking about it here does
nothing.

Re: manual activism (was: Re: no C-h i m emacs ??)

[Bob Proulx]

Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Anyway, I have some book-creating skills, both groff
> and LaTeX and the physical side to it. So, can I print
> the Emacs or Gnus manual, make a book of it, and then
> take it to the libraries of my city and insist they
> put it somewhere so people can borrow it?
> 
> Would that be legal?

Yes.  You can do that.  It would be legal.

Bob

Re: manual activism (was: Re: no C-h i m emacs ??)

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

Em Tue, 18 Nov 2014 03:49:20 +0100
Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> escreveu:

> Anyway, I have some book-creating skills, both groff
> and LaTeX and the physical side to it. So, can I print
> the Emacs or Gnus manual, make a book of it, and then
> take it to the libraries of my city and insist they
> put it somewhere so people can borrow it?

Better yet: buy copies from the FSF and donate to the nearest library.
That way you supports it in developing GNU and promoting software
freedom, while helping your neighbors who prefer a paper book or
don't know that 

  sudo apt-get install emacs24-common-non-dfsg

will solve their problems.  Of course, they could be afraid of
"non-free" repositories or not have the wisdom to differentiate what's
really free from what's not.

Ps: Debian's craziness goes to the length of classifying GNU manuals
the same as proprietary software, conflating both in the same infamous
repository. :-(  That's another reason for GNU to rule the world! ;-)

-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;

Re: no C-h i m emacs ??

[Stefan Monnier]

> As you know, that is a fundamental policy disagreement that is just
> never going to change.

Talking about it with Richard the other day, Richard suggested we should
setup a "GNU Debian" source which would be an almost exact mirror of
Debian, except that the GNU docs would be moved to the "main" section.
It would be great to be able to do this without mirroring the actual
"pool" subdirectory.

After all, to me the most serious problem with Debian's current policy
is not that Emacs defaults to being installed without docs, but rather
that I end up having to enable the "non-free" section.


        Stefan

RE: manual activism (was: Re: no C-h i m emacs ??)

[Subhan Michael Tindall]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+subhant=familycareinc.org@gnu.org
> [mailto:help-gnu-emacs-bounces+subhant=familycareinc.org@gnu.org] On
> Behalf Of Bob Proulx
> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 7:30 PM
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: manual activism (was: Re: no C-h i m emacs ??)
> 
> Emanuel Berg wrote:
> > Anyway, I have some book-creating skills, both groff and LaTeX and the
> > physical side to it. So, can I print the Emacs or Gnus manual, make a
> > book of it, and then take it to the libraries of my city and insist
> > they put it somewhere so people can borrow it?
> >
> > Would that be legal?
> 
> Yes.  You can do that.  It would be legal.
> 
> Bob
It may be legal, however, it is likely not going to get you far. Most libraries have a process in place to put books in to circulation.  A donated book is as likely to end up in the 'friends of the library' sale as it is in circulation, and you have virtually no control over that. 
A much better route is to contact your library, find out who curates the computer manual collection, and talk with them first.  A short document explaining what you want to donate and why it would be of use in the collection might be of use also.
I had a war tax protester friend who used to donate books for circulation every year with her tax money. It often took several months to get approval for specific books to be approved for the circulating collection.  Most of the time she ended up just asking the library for a short list of desired books and would work from there.
I don't know about your local library, but here in Multnomah County, OR, our library also has an extensive ebook collection that can be checked out, that might be an easier route to pursue to get such manuals added to the collection. 


This message is intended for the sole use of the individual and entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended addressee, nor authorized to receive for the intended addressee, you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose or distribute to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete the message.  Thank you.

Re: no C-h i m emacs ??

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

Em Tue, 18 Nov 2014 09:02:54 -0500
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> escreveu:

> After all, to me the most serious problem with Debian's current policy
> is not that Emacs defaults to being installed without docs, but rather
> that I end up having to enable the "non-free" section.

It'd be nice if Debian had a dedicated repository between 'main' and
'non-free' for everything that's *not* DFSG but is GFSD.


-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;

Re: no C-h i m emacs ??

[Stefan Monnier]

>> After all, to me the most serious problem with Debian's current policy
>> is not that Emacs defaults to being installed without docs, but rather
>> that I end up having to enable the "non-free" section.
> It'd be nice if Debian had a dedicated repository between 'main' and
> 'non-free' for everything that's *not* DFSG but is GFSD.

Yes, that would be a good solution as well.


        Stefan

Re: manual activism (was: Re: no C-h i m emacs ??)

[Emanuel Berg]

Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <oitofelix@gnu.org>
writes:

> Better yet: buy copies from the FSF and donate to
> the nearest library.

You think I'm the CEO of the national bank? *You* buy
them and send them to me, that is the best alternative
yet.

> That way you supports it in developing GNU and
> promoting software freedom, while helping your
> neighbors who prefer a paper book or don't know that
>
>   sudo apt-get install emacs24-common-non-dfsg
>
> will solve their problems. Of course, they could be
> afraid of "non-free" repositories or not have the
> wisdom to differentiate what's really free from
> what's not.

It is not really about that in this case. Here it is
more like: Computer Kid Kevin wants to make a 3D
shooter or MMORPG, and he also likes to read the
emails of the girls in his school. So he goes to the
public library to look for books on C++ (perhaps C#
these days), and security. He browses the shelves and
guess what, he finds the Emacs and Gnus manuals! So he
forgets all about fragging people in real-time 3D and
he arrives at the mature conclusion that it is better
to *mail* to the girls (perhaps using Gnus) than to
secretly read their correspondence with other guys.
Happy end. FIN.

> Ps: Debian's craziness goes to the length of
> classifying GNU manuals the same as proprietary
> software, conflating both in the same infamous
> repository. :-( That's another reason for GNU to rule
> the world! ;-)

You know the saying: The Microsoft people are
heartless businessmen, and the Apple people are
stinking intellectuals who cannot do laundry. But
worst of them all are the Linux people - they are our
allies!

[thunderous laughter]

-- 
underground experts united

Re: manual activism (was: Re: no C-h i m emacs ??)

[Emanuel Berg]

Subhan Michael Tindall <SubhanT@familycareinc.org>
writes:

> It may be legal, however, it is likely not going to
> get you far. Most libraries have a process in place
> to put books in to circulation. A donated book is as
> likely to end up in the 'friends of the library'
> sale as it is in circulation, and you have virtually
> no control over that. A much better route is to
> contact your library, find out who curates the
> computer manual collection, and talk with them
> first.

...and just what do you think my proposal is?

> A short document explaining what you want to donate
> and why it would be of use in the collection might
> be of use also. I had a war tax protester friend who
> used to donate books for circulation every year with
> her tax money. It often took several months to get
> approval for specific books to be approved for the
> circulating collection. Most of the time she ended
> up just asking the library for a short list of
> desired books and would work from there. I don't
> know about your local library, but here in Multnomah
> County, OR, our library also has an extensive ebook
> collection that can be checked out, that might be an
> easier route to pursue to get such manuals added to
> the collection.

The manuals are already available on the web and in
the repos. So I don't need to put them there, and even
if I did I wouldn't involve my library to do it.

> This message is intended for the sole use of the
> individual and entity to which it is addressed and
> may contain information that is privileged,
> confidential and exempt from disclosure under
> applicable law. If you are not the intended
> addressee, nor authorized to receive for the
> intended addressee, you are hereby notified that you
> may not use, copy, disclose or distribute to anyone
> the message or any information contained in the
> message. If you have received this message in error,
> please immediately advise the sender by reply email
> and delete the message. Thank you.

You are welcome.

-- 
underground experts united

Re: manual activism

[Dan Espen]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> It is not really about that in this case. Here it is
> more like: Computer Kid Kevin wants to make a 3D
> shooter or MMORPG, and he also likes to read the
> emails of the girls in his school. So he goes to the
> public library...

Computer kid goes to the public library?

You're kidding right?

-- 
Dan Espen

Re: manual activism (was: Re: no C-h i m emacs ??)

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

Em Tue, 18 Nov 2014 22:11:56 +0100
Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> escreveu:

> *You* buy them and send them to me, that is the best
> alternative yet.

I'm not for wasting paper with books.  I can download an electronic
copy and send it to you, though.  Then, you can donate any amount
of money you please to FSF.  How about that?

> You know the saying: The Microsoft people are
> heartless businessmen, and the Apple people are
> stinking intellectuals who cannot do laundry. But
> worst of them all are the Linux people - they are our
> allies!

Either that saying is lacking a "GNU" somewhere, or I can't figure out
what it really means.


-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;

Re: no C-h i m emacs ??

[Harry Putnam]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:

> Harry Putnam wrote:
>> So with all this installed:
>> 
>> aps emacs|grep ^i       
>> i   emacs-goodies-el        - Miscellaneous add-ons for Emacs           
>> i A emacs24-bin-common      - GNU Emacs editor's shared, architecture de
>> i A emacs24-common          - GNU Emacs editor's shared, architecture in
>> i   emacs24-el              - GNU Emacs LISP (.el) files                
>> i   emacs24-lucid           - GNU Emacs editor (with Lucid GUI support) 
>> i A emacsen-common          - Common facilities for all emacsen      
>> 
>> I still have no emacs-info files.
>
> I posted about this recently.  Please see this:
>
>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2014-07/msg00140.html
>
> To install the info files enable non-free in sources.list and then
> install the emacs24-common-non-dfsg package.

After seeing the response to my query.... I was amazed that I had
missed this old issue for yrs now.

Wondering how I missed noticing this problem for yrs ....

Finally I realized that I haven't used a pre-packaged emacs for years
but always built from source... even  having both debian pkg installed
to satisfy Debians pkg requirements but all the while instinctively
setting paths in site-start.el to the built and compiled version
installed from git or bzr in a --prefix=[...].

So, of course, the info files were available.  Consequently I've been
unburdened by what appears to be a baloney argument until now.

I got lazy and now see the error of my ways [...]

OK, building my own 24.4 as well as 25....  stepping around the issue.

Re: manual activism (was: Re: no C-h i m emacs ??)

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

Wow, that footer notice gets the inverse of the desired effect.


Em Tue, 18 Nov 2014 17:36:02 +0000
Subhan Michael Tindall <SubhanT@familycareinc.org> escreveu:

> This message is intended for the sole use of the individual and
> entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is
> privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable
> law.

Now I'm very curious about what I would otherwise dismiss if not by
that intriguing notice!


> If you are not the intended addressee, nor authorized to receive
> for the intended addressee, you are hereby notified that you may not
> use, copy, disclose or distribute to anyone the message or any
> information contained in the message. 

May I not?  How would you enforce it?  Now, I'm going to share it
anonymously just because you said I can't!  Otherwise I would just
delete this mail.


> If you have received this message in error, please immediately
> advise the sender by reply email and delete the message.

And then get prosecuted or killed?  Now that I read that, I won't ever
tell you anything!  I'll not let you know about my existence, and
won't tell anybody else that I've received that message!


> Thank you.

It's my pleasure.


-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;

Re: manual activism (was: Re: no C-h i m emacs ??)

[Emanuel Berg]

Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <oitofelix@gnu.org>
writes:

> I'm not for wasting paper with books.

Just curious: how many e-books do you read every year?

> I can download an electronic copy and send it to
> you, though.

That won't be necessary: I am capable of downloading
files from the Internet.

> Then, you can donate any amount of
> money you please to FSF. How about that?

How about: stop trying to spend *my* (non-existent)
money! I haven't spent I dime in five years. I'm not
talking about how to fund the FSF, I'm talking about
how to get those manuals to the library. You are of
course free to discuss FSF and all that but don't tell
me what to buy or download, that I'd appreciate. OK?

>> You know the saying: The Microsoft people are
>> heartless businessmen, and the Apple people are
>> stinking intellectuals who cannot do laundry. But
>> worst of them all are the Linux people - they are
>> our allies!
>
> Either that saying is lacking a "GNU" somewhere, or
> I can't figure out what it really means.

OK, do you understand this quote, then: "Whenever you
read a book and you don't understand it, it isn't
always the book's fault."

-- 
underground experts united

Re: manual activism

[Emanuel Berg]

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:

> Computer kid goes to the public library?
>
> You're kidding right?

You have expedition fever with me several posts now.
Let it go away and then we'll talk.

I am not kidding, and you know that.

In the public library in my city there are several
hundred books on computers and some are read to
shreds. By kids, and by students, and by gentlemen
with gray hair and glasses. Most of those books deal
with proprietary software but there are many, many
books on Linux, LAMP, Android (if you consider that a
good/free thing), UNIX C, everything you can think of.

In the scientific library on my CS school you can
imagine the situation. The people who go there are not
kids but some are 18, 19. It is very common that
though they did computers all their lives, they were
very sparsely exposed to free computing, be it BSD,
Linux, GNU, Usenet, you name it.

If we can get our books - in new, mint condition,
brand new editions - onto those shelves virtually
cost-free that would be *great*.

Do you not agree?

-- 
underground experts united

Re: manual activism (was: Re: no C-h i m emacs ??)

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

Em Tue, 18 Nov 2014 23:23:16 +0100
Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> escreveu:

> > I'm not for wasting paper with books.
> 
> Just curious: how many e-books do you read every year?

Does it count the GNU manuals read more than once?

> > I can download an electronic copy and send it to
> > you, though.
> 
> That won't be necessary: I am capable of downloading
> files from the Internet.

Are you sure?  One thing is downloading it and another is finding it.
Let me know if you happen to change your mind.


> > Then, you can donate any amount of
> > money you please to FSF. How about that?
> 
> How about: stop trying to spend *my* (non-existent)
> money! I haven't spent I dime in five years. I'm not
> talking about how to fund the FSF, I'm talking about
> how to get those manuals to the library. You are of
> course free to discuss FSF and all that but don't tell
> me what to buy or download, that I'd appreciate. OK?

Even if to give you instructions of how to get those manuals to
the library we had to tell you what to buy or download?


> OK, do you understand this quote, then: "Whenever you
> read a book and you don't understand it, it isn't
> always the book's fault."

I understand it, but I don't see how it's applicable.  I know however
another quote that is so in this very situation: "Whenever you
quote some text and someone else doesn't understand it, it isn't always
their fault."


-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-Libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software must be free as in freedom;

Re: manual activism

[Dan Espen]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> Computer kid goes to the public library?
>>
>> You're kidding right?
>
> You have expedition fever with me several posts now.
> Let it go away and then we'll talk.
>
> I am not kidding, and you know that.
>
> In the public library in my city there are several
> hundred books on computers and some are read to
> shreds. By kids, and by students, and by gentlemen
> with gray hair and glasses. Most of those books deal
> with proprietary software but there are many, many
> books on Linux, LAMP, Android (if you consider that a
> good/free thing), UNIX C, everything you can think of.
>
> In the scientific library on my CS school you can
> imagine the situation. The people who go there are not
> kids but some are 18, 19. It is very common that
> though they did computers all their lives, they were
> very sparsely exposed to free computing, be it BSD,
> Linux, GNU, Usenet, you name it.
>
> If we can get our books - in new, mint condition,
> brand new editions - onto those shelves virtually
> cost-free that would be *great*.
>
> Do you not agree?

I haven't been to a library in a long time.
I'll have to take your word for what goes on there.

All I know is that I can find all I want to know
on just about any subject in a few seconds with
a search engine.

Sometimes those searches lead to sites selling books.
I've never felt I needed a book.
The online resources are current and complete for my needs.


-- 
Dan Espen

Re: manual activism (was: Re: no C-h i m emacs ??)

[Emanuel Berg]

Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <oitofelix@gnu.org>
writes:

>>> I'm not for wasting paper with books.
>>
>> Just curious: how many e-books do you read every
>> year?
>
> Does it count the GNU manuals read more than once?

Absolutely. A "book" can be everything from say 75
pages to some 300. "Lord of the Rings", "Idiot", etc.
count one book per volume. Re-reading counts as a new,
as it is a virtue to do that, especially if some time
has passed since the previous read. A "book" can also
be a magazine of the type Black Belt, The Ring,
Linux Journal, the SF&F magazines (previously refered
to as pulp mags), and so on, as they often contain as
much information as a book. Actually the "rules" are
not that important. Just give me a rough estimate and
I'll accept it.

>>> I can download an electronic copy and send it to
>>> you, though.
>>
>> That won't be necessary: I am capable of
>> downloading files from the Internet.
>
> Are you sure? One thing is downloading it and
> another is finding it. Let me know if you happen to
> change your mind.

No, stop it, I know where to find them and how to
download them as does everyone else.

> Even if to give you instructions of how to get those
> manuals to the library we had to tell you what to
> buy or download?

You have not given me a single instruction that has
made any sense. One person said something sensible
when he confirmed this was a legal thing to do, after
that is has only been negativism and expedition fever
all over.

> I understand it, but I don't see how it's
> applicable. I know however another quote that is so
> in this very situation: "Whenever you quote some
> text and someone else doesn't understand it, it
> isn't always their fault."

You just made that quote up, but OK: what I wrote was
a joke. I'm not going to explain it because even if
you succeed explaining jokes only on "Star Trek" with
Data's emotion chip they make people laugh in
retrospect long after the joke was made. If you don't
get it - yeah, that's it.

-- 
underground experts united

Re: manual activism

[Emanuel Berg]

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:

> I haven't been to a library in a long time. I'll
> have to take your word for what goes on there.
>
> All I know is that I can find all I want to know on
> just about any subject in a few seconds with a
> search engine.
>
> Sometimes those searches lead to sites selling
> books. I've never felt I needed a book. The online
> resources are current and complete for my needs.

Oh, man. There is a world for you to explore.

Let's make an experiment. I advice you to read these
two books and then if you still don't want to do it
you at least gave it a shot and no one can blame you.

* "Masters of Deception" by Joshua Quittner and
  Michelle Slatalla (1999 Library Binding) ISBN
  0-7857-8744-5

* "The Kon-Tiki Expedition: By Raft Across the South
  Seas" ("Kon-Tiki ekspedisjonen", also known as
  "Kon-Tiki: Across the Pacific in a Raft"), 1948, by
  Thor Heyerdahl.

-- 
underground experts united

Re: manual activism

[Dan Espen]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> I haven't been to a library in a long time. I'll
>> have to take your word for what goes on there.
>>
>> All I know is that I can find all I want to know on
>> just about any subject in a few seconds with a
>> search engine.
>>
>> Sometimes those searches lead to sites selling
>> books. I've never felt I needed a book. The online
>> resources are current and complete for my needs.
>
> Oh, man. There is a world for you to explore.
>
> Let's make an experiment. I advice you to read these
> two books and then if you still don't want to do it
> you at least gave it a shot and no one can blame you.
>
> * "Masters of Deception" by Joshua Quittner and
>   Michelle Slatalla (1999 Library Binding) ISBN
>   0-7857-8744-5
>
> * "The Kon-Tiki Expedition: By Raft Across the South
>   Seas" ("Kon-Tiki ekspedisjonen", also known as
>   "Kon-Tiki: Across the Pacific in a Raft"), 1948, by
>   Thor Heyerdahl.

What kind of point are you trying to make?

I read the Kon-Tiki book in my youth.
It was good, but I see no need to read it again.

Masters of Deception appears to be available as a free ebook.
I'll download it when I get a chance.

I'm still not anywhere near a Public Library and if you are
trying to imply I need to visit a library,
you are demonstrably wrong.

-- 
Dan Espen

Re: manual activism

[Dan Espen]

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:

> Masters of Deception" by Joshua Quittner

Oops.  There are a few books with that title.
This one is about hackers.

I don't actually see an ebook, but I did find a site that
would let me download a PDF if I registered.

Not really interested in the subject matter, so I won't
download.

Still haven't identified a good reason to get in the car
and drive to the library.  I can certainly find huge volumes
of information about hacking online.

-- 
Dan Espen

RE: manual activism (was: Re: no C-h i m emacs ??)

[Subhan Michael Tindall]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+subhant=familycareinc.org@gnu.org
> [mailto:help-gnu-emacs-bounces+subhant=familycareinc.org@gnu.org] On
> Behalf Of Emanuel Berg
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:16 PM
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: manual activism (was: Re: no C-h i m emacs ??)
> 
> Subhan Michael Tindall <SubhanT@familycareinc.org>
> writes:
> 
> > It may be legal, however, it is likely not going to get you far. Most
> > libraries have a process in place to put books in to circulation. A
> > donated book is as likely to end up in the 'friends of the library'
> > sale as it is in circulation, and you have virtually no control over
> > that. A much better route is to contact your library, find out who
> > curates the computer manual collection, and talk with them first.
> 
> ...and just what do you think my proposal is?
I believe it was:

"make a book of it, and then take it to the libraries of my city and insist 
 they put it somewhere so people can borrow it"

Which, frankly, sounded pretty rude to my ear.

> 
> > A short document explaining what you want to donate and why it would
> > be of use in the collection might be of use also. I had a war tax
> > protester friend who used to donate books for circulation every year
> > with her tax money. It often took several months to get approval for
> > specific books to be approved for the circulating collection. Most of
> > the time she ended up just asking the library for a short list of
> > desired books and would work from there. I don't know about your local
> > library, but here in Multnomah County, OR, our library also has an
> > extensive ebook collection that can be checked out, that might be an
> > easier route to pursue to get such manuals added to the collection.
> 
> The manuals are already available on the web and in the repos. So I don't
> need to put them there, and even if I did I wouldn't involve my library to do
> it.
> 
> > This message is intended for the sole use of the individual and entity
> > to which it is addressed and may contain information that is
> > privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable
> > law. If you are not the intended addressee, nor authorized to receive
> > for the intended addressee, you are hereby notified that you may not
> > use, copy, disclose or distribute to anyone the message or any
> > information contained in the message. If you have received this
> > message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email
> > and delete the message. Thank you.
> 
> You are welcome.
> 
> --
> underground experts united

This message is intended for the sole use of the individual and entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended addressee, nor authorized to receive for the intended addressee, you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose or distribute to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete the message.  Thank you.

Re: manual activism

[Emanuel Berg]

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:

> What kind of point are you trying to make?
>
> I read the Kon-Tiki book in my youth. It was good,
> but I see no need to read it again.
>
> Masters of Deception appears to be available as a
> free ebook. I'll download it when I get a chance.
>
> I'm still not anywhere near a Public Library and if
> you are trying to imply I need to visit a library,
> you are demonstrably wrong.

Yeah, OK. I got the impression you never read a book,
like in your entire life. I'm happy that wasn't the
case :)

The point is: many people say they don't need books,
books are a thing of the past, they aren't good for
the environment, and so on.

Those people may be somewhat right from their horizon.
If they mean they are fine with looking up a fact or
two in their e-book manuals, or pass some time on the
subway, OK, they don't need books.

But there are many people that read books all the
time. They read hundreds every year. Especially girls
but there are such guys as well. For them to switch to
e-books only is not only very impractical and totally
unrealistic but also undesirable, and I'm not one to
say what that will do to their minds and bodies, but
it ain't good.

When *such a person* tells me "I don't need books, I
use my device" then I'll believe it. But I don't see
that happening too soon or too often, if ever.

As for the environment... Trees are not exactly like
oil. Besides, we must also consider factors like the
total lack of consumption while reading. It is not
only the book itself. A lot of people drink soda
because they are bored, and restless. In the public
library, there is a lot of books but much less soda.
Book-worms should have among the lowest levels of
consumption of all people I can think of!

So it isn't a competition who reads more books because
that would be immature :) and besides then the e-book
readers will be totally obliterated. It is just e-book
readers, and those who pretend to be, should not be
outspoken about books because it ain't their domain.
Stick to fiddling with those devices and be all
hypnotized about it.

-- 
underground experts united

Re: manual activism

[Emanuel Berg]

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:

> Oops. There are a few books with that title. This
> one is about hackers.
>
> I don't actually see an ebook, but I did find a site
> that would let me download a PDF if I registered.
>
> Not really interested in the subject matter, so I
> won't download.
>
> Still haven't identified a good reason to get in the
> car and drive to the library. I can certainly find
> huge volumes of information about hacking online.

That was just an example when I thought you never read
a single book in your life (but that book is great
fun). For people who read a lot, like several hours
every day, it is *very good* for them to go to the
bookstore and public library as often as possible, the
more the better. Nothing say you have to do it by car
- you can walk or ride a bike or even take the bus or
subway or whatever public transportation is in your
city. Everything is better than to fiddle with a
device at your home 24/7 which would be the result if
millions of book-worms were to switch to e-books only
(if they indeed would accept that, which they
wouldn't). More, they would also loose "touch" with
one of typically very few physical objects that
remains to their lives: most book-worms aren't exactly
forest workers, or boxers in their spare time. You
are only "I don't need it" all the time - OK, so you
don't need it. But many people do.

-- 
underground experts united