* making software with Emacs and Elisp @ 2013-10-20 0:17 Emanuel Berg 2013-10-20 1:42 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2013-10-20 0:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs I have several ideas for software that has to do with physical things, and does not belong in the world of computing. For example, I'm working on a tool to teach deaf people read lips! (Not "Lisp".) Is there a minimal binary Emacs VM for the accursed Apple and Windows world, that you could distribute along with the software, or is there another way you could make all that work? -- Emanuel Berg, programmer-for-rent. CV, projects, etc at uXu underground experts united: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp 2013-10-20 0:17 making software with Emacs and Elisp Emanuel Berg @ 2013-10-20 1:42 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 2013-10-20 1:36 ` Emanuel Berg 2013-10-20 9:15 ` Marcin Borkowski [not found] ` <mailman.4335.1382260532.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-10-20 1:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > I have several ideas for software that has to do with > physical things, and does not belong in the world of > computing. For example, I'm working on a tool to teach > deaf people read lips! (Not "Lisp".) > > Is there a minimal binary Emacs VM for the accursed > Apple and Windows world, that you could distribute along > with the software, or is there another way you could > make all that work? There are binaries of emacs for MacOSX, MS-Windows and various unices including GNU systems. In general, an installation of emacs includes the emacs executable, plus a set of compiled emacs lisp libraries (.elc files in /usr/share/emacs/). Usually, there are also the source .el files. There are also a few auxiliary programs in /usr/lib/emacs (movemail, hexl, etc). On a 64-bit system: $ du -shc /usr/share/emacs/24.2/ /usr/lib/emacs/24.2/ /usr/bin/emacs24-x 69M /usr/share/emacs/24.2/ 96K /usr/lib/emacs/24.2/ 13M /usr/bin/emacs24-x 82M total The binary is only 13MB (about 8MB on a 32-bit system IIRC). You could prefectly use only that. You can try it with the -Q option: emacs -Q and see what's left of the emacs user experience with it. You could indeed develop an application on this bare emacs, but this would be equivalent to develop an application on a bare Linux kernel with only a shell and gcc installed. You can write an ed-like editor in bash, and soon enough be editing programs to be compiled with gcc. Perhaps the first program you'd write would be a lisp interpreter in which to write an emacs… But soon after that, you'll gather libraries to be able to write higher level programs. To compare with little applications in the accursed Apple world: 428M NeoOffice.app 346M iWeb.app 225M iTunes.app 177M iPhoto.app 176M GarageBand.app 158M XBMC.app 141M Coqide.app 139M VLC.app 139M Second Life Viewer 2.app 136M DXOOpticsPro8.app 133M Emacs.app 126M Aquamacs.app 123M iDVD.app 121M Wireshark.app 115M iMovie.app 103M Firefox.app --------------------------------> emacs 24.2 with everything 67M SeaMonkey.app 64M Skype.app 56M Camino.app 54M Mail.app 53M VLCStreamer.app 53M Firefox3.app 52M Coda.app 51M Thunderbird.app 48M SuperTrainsFree.app 45M Dropbox.app 43M Preview.app 38M iCal.app 36M Clozure CL.app 31M Safari.app 31M QuickTime Player.app 30M iChat.app 22M Photo Booth.app 21M Address Book.app 20M Plane Control Lite.app 18M ArgoUML.app 16M DivX Player.app ------------------------------> /usr/bin/emacs24-x 13M FaceTime.app 12M Nokia Multimedia Transfer.app 11M Font Book.app 10M DVD Player.app 10M Automator.app 10M App Store.app So I don't see what you would earn, in preventing yourself to use the *.elc libraries provided with emacs in your emacs application. Unless you like to fight with both hands tied in the back. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp 2013-10-20 1:42 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-10-20 1:36 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2013-10-20 1:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes: > The binary is only 13MB (about 8MB on a 32-bit system > IIRC). You could prefectly use only that. You can > try it with the -Q option: > > emacs -Q > > and see what's left of the emacs user experience with > it. Yeah, I know. > You could indeed develop an application on this bare > emacs, but this would be equivalent to develop an > application on a bare Linux kernel with only a shell > and gcc installed. You can write an ed-like editor in > bash, and soon enough be editing programs to be > compiled with gcc. Perhaps the first program you'd > write would be a lisp interpreter in which to write an > emacs... But soon after that, you'll gather libraries > to be able to write higher level programs. You are right, might as well ship the whole thing (or provide references). Some people will be put off by that, and some people will mess it up, but you can never make everything work for everyone anyway. > To compare with little applications in the accursed > Apple world Crazy stuff. -- Emanuel Berg, programmer-for-rent. CV, projects, etc at uXu underground experts united: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp 2013-10-20 0:17 making software with Emacs and Elisp Emanuel Berg 2013-10-20 1:42 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-10-20 9:15 ` Marcin Borkowski 2013-10-20 12:40 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon [not found] ` <mailman.4335.1382260532.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2013-10-20 9:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Dnia 2013-10-20, o godz. 02:17:35 Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> napisał(a): > I have several ideas for software that has to do with > physical things, and does not belong in the world of > computing. For example, I'm working on a tool to teach > deaf people read lips! (Not "Lisp".) > > Is there a minimal binary Emacs VM for the accursed > Apple and Windows world, that you could distribute along > with the software, or is there another way you could > make all that work? I understand that you want to develop your application in "EmacsOS";), that is, using Emacs as a "operating system" or "framework" or "virtual machine" (or whatever is the current buzzword at the moment), so that you get high portability (without Java etc.). One thing that comes to mind is Clojure (with which I have zero experience), but it gives you the benefits of Lisp, of portability (at least as much as Java does) and of libraries (read JVM). And, did you see this: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsPortableApp ? Hth, -- Marcin Borkowski http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski Adam Mickiewicz University ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp 2013-10-20 9:15 ` Marcin Borkowski @ 2013-10-20 12:40 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-10-20 12:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Marcin Borkowski <mbork@wmi.amu.edu.pl> writes: > Dnia 2013-10-20, o godz. 02:17:35 > Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> napisał(a): > >> I have several ideas for software that has to do with >> physical things, and does not belong in the world of >> computing. For example, I'm working on a tool to teach >> deaf people read lips! (Not "Lisp".) >> >> Is there a minimal binary Emacs VM for the accursed >> Apple and Windows world, that you could distribute along >> with the software, or is there another way you could >> make all that work? > > I understand that you want to develop your application in "EmacsOS";), > that is, using Emacs as a "operating system" or "framework" or "virtual > machine" (or whatever is the current buzzword at the moment), so that > you get high portability (without Java etc.). You forgot "textual user interface". > One thing that comes to mind is Clojure (with which I have zero > experience), but it gives you the benefits of Lisp, of portability (at > least as much as Java does) and of libraries (read JVM). And this is what clojure and java don't have. A good alternative would be the Oberon system in a virtual machine. http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/downloads/index > And, did you see this: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsPortableApp ? > > Hth, -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
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* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp [not found] ` <mailman.4335.1382260532.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-10-22 23:00 ` Emanuel Berg 2013-10-22 23:29 ` Marcin Borkowski ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2013-10-22 23:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Marcin Borkowski <mbork@wmi.amu.edu.pl> writes: > I understand that you want to develop your application > in "EmacsOS" You are actually the *third* person who brought up the "OS" aspect with me. I never thought of Emacs that way. Well, it isn't like the Linux kernel because it is interactive, and it doesn't access and allocate hardware to a pool of processes. For example, if you run a shell command from Emacs, that is continuous/background in character, isn't that run next to Emacs, with the kernel doing the multitasking, rather than on top of Emacs, and Emacs doing the scheduling etc.? But you may also include other stuff in a definition of "OS", like the libraries, the tools, the interface... In that sense I agree Emacs is very much an OS, perhaps even the best there is! But (in the kernel "OS" interpretation), that's overkill for my purposes, I don't need to spawn processes/threads and all that, I just need to be able to execute my Elisp software elsewhere, the same way it is executed on my machine. Doesn't for example Python code work everywhere, as long as you have a Python interpreter? (I never did Python.) Something like that would be enough, and I suppose the Elisp interpreter is... Emacs. > One thing that comes to mind is Clojure (with which I > have zero experience), but it gives you the benefits > of Lisp, of portability (at least as much as Java > does) and of libraries (read JVM). Yeah, I'm not doing Java, and as for Clojure, I don't feel like learning anything brand new at the moment. You could easily do that you entire life (learn new things). Right now, I'm more into doing something with what I know right now. There are so many Lisp dialects. I what way is Clojure more portable? -- Emanuel Berg, programmer-for-rent. CV, projects, etc at uXu underground experts united: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp 2013-10-22 23:00 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2013-10-22 23:29 ` Marcin Borkowski 2013-10-23 0:36 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon [not found] ` <mailman.4507.1382488595.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2013-10-22 23:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Dnia 2013-10-23, o godz. 01:00:21 Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> napisał(a): > Marcin Borkowski <mbork@wmi.amu.edu.pl> writes: > > > I understand that you want to develop your application > > in "EmacsOS" > > You are actually the *third* person who brought up the > "OS" aspect with me. I never thought of Emacs that way. I had to - most of my friend use Vim, and Emacs being an OS is a recurring joke of them (see below). > Well, it isn't like the Linux kernel because it is > interactive, and it doesn't access and allocate hardware > to a pool of processes. For example, if you run a shell > command from Emacs, that is continuous/background in > character, isn't that run next to Emacs, with the kernel > doing the multitasking, rather than on top of Emacs, and > Emacs doing the scheduling etc.? > > But you may also include other stuff in a definition of > "OS", like the libraries, the tools, the interface... In > that sense I agree Emacs is very much an OS, perhaps > even the best there is! Yes. More of a window manager, or desktop environment than OS. (But remember the old joke: "Emacs is actually a nice OS, it only lacks a decent ASCII editor." NB.: each time I'm told this joke, I reply with this one: "Why are Vim users so egocentric? Because they begin each sentence with `I'.") > But (in the kernel "OS" interpretation), that's overkill > for my purposes, I don't need to spawn processes/threads > and all that, I just need to be able to execute my Elisp > software elsewhere, the same way it is executed on my > machine. True. > Doesn't for example Python code work everywhere, as long > as you have a Python interpreter? (I never did Python.) > Something like that would be enough, and I suppose the > Elisp interpreter is... Emacs. Yes, but in Emacs you get the UI for free, with all the nice editing stuff. (Probably Python with GTK or Qt or whatever is a rough equivalent - well, minus the nice editing stuff, of course.) > > One thing that comes to mind is Clojure (with which I > > have zero experience), but it gives you the benefits > > of Lisp, of portability (at least as much as Java > > does) and of libraries (read JVM). > > Yeah, I'm not doing Java, and as for Clojure, I don't > feel like learning anything brand new at the moment. You > could easily do that you entire life (learn new > things). Right now, I'm more into doing something with > what I know right now. Understood. > There are so many Lisp dialects. I what way is Clojure > more portable? It compiles to Java bytecode. And you have access to Java libraries. (But again, maybe one should beware of Java. As another joke says: Someone had a problem, and decided to use Java. Now he has a ProblemFactory.) Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski Adam Mickiewicz University ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp 2013-10-22 23:00 ` Emanuel Berg 2013-10-22 23:29 ` Marcin Borkowski @ 2013-10-23 0:36 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon [not found] ` <mailman.4507.1382488595.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-10-23 0:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > Marcin Borkowski <mbork@wmi.amu.edu.pl> writes: > >> I understand that you want to develop your application >> in "EmacsOS" > > You are actually the *third* person who brought up the > "OS" aspect with me. I never thought of Emacs that way. > > Well, it isn't like the Linux kernel because it is > interactive, and it doesn't access and allocate hardware > to a pool of processes. For example, if you run a shell > command from Emacs, that is continuous/background in > character, isn't that run next to Emacs, with the kernel > doing the multitasking, rather than on top of Emacs, and > Emacs doing the scheduling etc.? cf. the process objects. emacs does manage memory, or schedule processor time for the various functions running in emacs. Also, "Operating System" doesn't mean unix-like architecture. You can have very different architectures. > But you may also include other stuff in a definition of > "OS", like the libraries, the tools, the interface... In > that sense I agree Emacs is very much an OS, perhaps > even the best there is! Indeed, an OS is not a kernel. cf. GNU vs. Linux, or GNU vs. Hurd. cf. emacs vs. Linux http://informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html > But (in the kernel "OS" interpretation), that's overkill > for my purposes, I don't need to spawn processes/threads > and all that, I just need to be able to execute my Elisp > software elsewhere, the same way it is executed on my > machine. > > Doesn't for example Python code work everywhere, as long > as you have a Python interpreter? No it doesn't. There are a lot of versions of python, and python libraries may or may not work on several of those versions. Distributions usually package them so that several versions can be installed at the same time, and a python program chooses one version or another to run. The same is true for ruby (with even a specific tools to setup the environment with a given ruby version and gem configuartion, cf. rvm). Some implementations also can install different versions of emacs. (cf. gentoo eselect, /etc/alternatives on ubuntu, etc). > Something like that would be enough, and I suppose the > Elisp interpreter is... Emacs. That said, there's less differences between (consecutive) versions of emacs than in the case of ruby or python, and it's easier to write a program that can run on different versions of emacs lisp. As long as emacs is installed (it may be a dependency of your program, so it gets installed automatically in a given distribtion package management system), you can run your program with: $ emacs -Q --batch -l myprogram.el you can provide a script to launch your program such as: $ cat myprogram #!/bin/sh exec emacs -Q --batch -l myprogram.el $ -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
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* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp [not found] ` <mailman.4507.1382488595.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-10-24 19:57 ` Emanuel Berg 2013-10-24 22:00 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2013-10-24 19:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes: > emacs does manage memory, or schedule processor time > for the various functions running in emacs. So it does? Then it *is* an OS within the OS, at the very least, like a Chinese box or those Russian dolls. But - when does this happen? And how is it done? For example, if I write an interactive defun, I always thought that was executed sequentially upon invocation. Is that so? And, how do I code a defun that is interactive in the sense it can be invoked by the user, but "batch" in the sense that it is run in the background, perhaps as an infinite loop? And if I make two such defuns, can I give them different priorities, and otherwise like the PCBs of a "real" OS, to setup how they should relate to everything else? > Also, "Operating System" doesn't mean unix-like > architecture. You can have very different > architectures. Yeah, I guess that's just a schoolbook issue anyway. > $ emacs -Q --batch -l myprogram.el > ... > $ cat myprogram > #!/bin/sh > exec emacs -Q --batch -l myprogram.el Great! -- Emanuel Berg, programmer-for-rent. CV, projects, etc at uXu underground experts united: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp 2013-10-24 19:57 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2013-10-24 22:00 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 2013-10-24 22:24 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-10-24 22:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes: > >> emacs does manage memory, or schedule processor time >> for the various functions running in emacs. > > So it does? Then it *is* an OS within the OS, at the > very least, like a Chinese box or those Russian > dolls. Indeed. > But - when does this happen? > And how is it done? > For example, if I write an interactive defun, I always > thought that was executed sequentially upon > invocation. Is that so? And, how do I code a defun that > is interactive in the sense it can be invoked by the > user, but "batch" in the sense that it is run in the > background, perhaps as an infinite loop? And if I make > two such defuns, can I give them different priorities, > and otherwise like the PCBs of a "real" OS, to setup how > they should relate to everything else? If you want to run processes in the outer system you can call start-process amongst a few other functions. But you can have code scheduled to run in emacs. It is not a preemptive system, but a collaborative one, where each task must release the CPU quickly enough for the rest of the system to stay responsive. But a lot of tasks are scheduled this way in emacs (eg. background font-locking, semantic incremental parses, etc). See: run-with-idle-timer Things like priorities or "how things relate to everything else" are notions specific to a given system. Eg. emacs run-with-idle-timer doesn't deal with priorities, only with timing. >> Also, "Operating System" doesn't mean unix-like >> architecture. You can have very different >> architectures. > > Yeah, I guess that's just a schoolbook issue anyway. > >> $ emacs -Q --batch -l myprogram.el >> ... >> $ cat myprogram >> #!/bin/sh >> exec emacs -Q --batch -l myprogram.el > > Great! -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp 2013-10-24 22:00 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-10-24 22:24 ` Emanuel Berg 2013-10-24 22:34 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon [not found] ` <mailman.4647.1382654123.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2013-10-24 22:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes: > If you want to run processes in the outer system you > can call start-process amongst a few other functions. No, I meant "Emacs processes" but you answered that with `run-with-idle-timer', I guess. > But you can have code scheduled to run in emacs. It > is not a preemptive system, but a collaborative one, > where each task must release the CPU quickly enough > for the rest of the system to stay responsive. But a > lot of tasks are scheduled this way in emacs > (eg. background font-locking, semantic incremental > parses, etc). See: run-with-idle-timer OK, so there is one *main* Emacs process running, that might turn *idle*, I guess if you don't do anything, and when that happens, some Emacs arbitrator looks in a pool of background tasks that would be beneficial if they were run, and then runs them, and then when you start to do something again, the main Emacs process does *not* preempt those background tasks, instead they are run to completion, and it is assumed you (the user) won't notice, as they should be so fast anyway? -- Emanuel Berg, programmer-for-rent. CV, projects, etc at uXu underground experts united: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp 2013-10-24 22:24 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2013-10-24 22:34 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon [not found] ` <mailman.4647.1382654123.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-10-24 22:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes: > >> If you want to run processes in the outer system you >> can call start-process amongst a few other functions. > > No, I meant "Emacs processes" but you answered that with > `run-with-idle-timer', I guess. > >> But you can have code scheduled to run in emacs. It >> is not a preemptive system, but a collaborative one, >> where each task must release the CPU quickly enough >> for the rest of the system to stay responsive. But a >> lot of tasks are scheduled this way in emacs >> (eg. background font-locking, semantic incremental >> parses, etc). See: run-with-idle-timer > > OK, so there is one *main* Emacs process running, Yes, call it the "kernel". > that might turn *idle*, I guess if you don't do anything, and > when that happens, some Emacs arbitrator looks in a pool > of background tasks that would be beneficial if they > were run, and then runs them, and then when you start to > do something again, the main Emacs process does *not* > preempt those background tasks, instead they are run to > completion, and it is assumed you (the user) won't > notice, as they should be so fast anyway? Yes. But actually the kernel only does that, manage the hardware to find the next event, and process that event thru keymaps to find the function to call. When it has no event it calls the functions from the idle timer queue. You can consider the command bound to keys as outside of the kernel, since you can change them easily and dynamically. You cannot change easily the event loop of the kernel. Of course, the emacs system is not architectured like a unix system. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
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* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp [not found] ` <mailman.4647.1382654123.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-10-24 22:43 ` Emanuel Berg 2013-10-25 19:11 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2013-10-24 22:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes: > Of course, the emacs system is not architectured like > a unix system. Do I reason like it is, or is it just a very important point to make (several times)? Or both? This is very interesting! -- Emanuel Berg, programmer-for-rent. CV, projects, etc at uXu underground experts united: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp 2013-10-24 22:43 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2013-10-25 19:11 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-10-25 19:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes: > >> Of course, the emacs system is not architectured like >> a unix system. > > Do I reason like it is, or is it just a very important > point to make (several times)? Or both? > > This is very interesting! I'm glad you understand this point. A lot of people are surprised by non-posix-like operating systems. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp
@ 2013-10-20 1:00 Barry OReilly
0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Barry OReilly @ 2013-10-20 1:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: help-gnu-emacs
> I have several ideas for software that has to do with physical
> things, and does not belong in the world of computing. For example,
> I'm working on a tool to teach deaf people read lips! (Not "Lisp".)
>
> Is there a minimal binary Emacs VM for the accursed Apple and
> Windows world, that you could distribute along with the software, or
> is there another way you could make all that work?
Having an Emacs that can run outside the world of computing could be
difficult. You could start by looking at the butterfly function
though.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
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* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp [not found] <mailman.4327.1382230827.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2013-10-20 1:12 ` Emanuel Berg 2013-10-20 1:51 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2013-10-20 1:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Barry OReilly <gundaetiapo@gmail.com> writes: >> I have several ideas for software that has to do with >> physical things, and does not belong in the world of >> computing. For example, I'm working on a tool to >> teach deaf people read lips! (Not "Lisp".) >> >> Is there a minimal binary Emacs VM for the accursed >> Apple and Windows world, that you could distribute >> along with the software, or is there another way you >> could make all that work? > > Having an Emacs that can run outside the world of > computing could be difficult. Tools that deal with computers are ready to ship the moment they work on your on system. But if I make a tool for fishers, I don't demand that they are fluent in Unix. On the contrary, I'd be happy if they use my software on whatever system. > You could start by looking at the butterfly function > though. There *is* such a function, it seems like a joke though. Unless I'm wrong, your post wasn't helpful. -- Emanuel Berg, programmer-for-rent. CV, projects, etc at uXu underground experts united: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: making software with Emacs and Elisp 2013-10-20 1:12 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2013-10-20 1:51 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Pascal J. Bourguignon @ 2013-10-20 1:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > Barry OReilly <gundaetiapo@gmail.com> writes: > >>> I have several ideas for software that has to do with >>> physical things, and does not belong in the world of >>> computing. For example, I'm working on a tool to >>> teach deaf people read lips! (Not "Lisp".) >>> >>> Is there a minimal binary Emacs VM for the accursed >>> Apple and Windows world, that you could distribute >>> along with the software, or is there another way you >>> could make all that work? >> >> Having an Emacs that can run outside the world of >> computing could be difficult. > > Tools that deal with computers are ready to ship the > moment they work on your on system. But if I make a tool > for fishers, I don't demand that they are fluent in > Unix. On the contrary, I'd be happy if they use my > software on whatever system. > >> You could start by looking at the butterfly function >> though. > > There *is* such a function, it seems like a joke though. > > Unless I'm wrong, your post wasn't helpful. Well perhaps nobody implemented a M-x butterfly backend. But there are emacs backends for several commands with physical world effects, including M-x coffee (implementing the htcpcp protocol) and teledildonics. http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CoffeeMode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1sXuHnf_lo -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2013-10-25 19:11 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 17+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2013-10-20 0:17 making software with Emacs and Elisp Emanuel Berg 2013-10-20 1:42 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 2013-10-20 1:36 ` Emanuel Berg 2013-10-20 9:15 ` Marcin Borkowski 2013-10-20 12:40 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon [not found] ` <mailman.4335.1382260532.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-10-22 23:00 ` Emanuel Berg 2013-10-22 23:29 ` Marcin Borkowski 2013-10-23 0:36 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon [not found] ` <mailman.4507.1382488595.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-10-24 19:57 ` Emanuel Berg 2013-10-24 22:00 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon 2013-10-24 22:24 ` Emanuel Berg 2013-10-24 22:34 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon [not found] ` <mailman.4647.1382654123.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-10-24 22:43 ` Emanuel Berg 2013-10-25 19:11 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below -- 2013-10-20 1:00 Barry OReilly [not found] <mailman.4327.1382230827.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2013-10-20 1:12 ` Emanuel Berg 2013-10-20 1:51 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
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