From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Xavier Maillard Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: emacs-w3m question Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 08:25:18 +0100 Organization: GNU's Not UNIX! Message-ID: <200811050725.mA57PI6E028116@zogzog.maillard.mobi> References: <87vdvdu4mp.fsf@literaturlatenight.de> <74160b46-e541-436a-a776-c8bd53d6cd55@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com> <1f28a20e-0c9f-4478-a85c-27ae40ed7fc9@v16g2000prc.googlegroups.com> <4d476218-bd76-4d41-8a12-1428dfba9e9b@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com> Reply-To: Xavier Maillard NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1225952979 8661 80.91.229.12 (6 Nov 2008 06:29:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 06:29:39 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Xah Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 06 07:30:41 2008 connect(): Connection refused Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KxyO8-0000G3-SW for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 06 Nov 2008 07:30:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45568 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KxyN1-0008Sy-Dx for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:29:31 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KxyMV-0008SU-KS for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:28:59 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KxyMU-0008Rp-7q for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:28:58 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=47356 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KxyMT-0008RT-IR for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:28:57 -0500 Original-Received: from master.uucpssh.org ([193.218.105.66]:58688) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KxyMT-0001pJ-GO for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:28:57 -0500 Original-Received: by master.uucpssh.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 370D2F2AEC; Thu, 6 Nov 2008 07:27:35 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from zogzog.maillard.mobi (IDENT:1000@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zogzog.maillard.mobi (8.14.2/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mA57PIDm028117; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 08:25:18 +0100 Original-Received: (from xma@localhost) by zogzog.maillard.mobi (8.14.2/8.13.8/Submit) id mA57PI6E028116; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 08:25:18 +0100 In-reply-to: <4d476218-bd76-4d41-8a12-1428dfba9e9b@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com> (message from Xah on Mon, 3 Nov 2008 17:48:14 -0800 (PST)) User-Agent: Rmail in GNU Emacs 23.0.60.12 on GNU/Linux Jabber-ID: xma01@jabber.fr X-uucpssh: Found to be clean X-uucpssh-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-4.348, required 4.6, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -1.80, AWL 0.05, BAYES_00 -2.60, SPF_HELO_PASS -0.00) X-uucpssh-From: xma@gnu.org X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:59493 Archived-At: Hi Xha, [what a long post ! :)] On Nov 3, 3:25 am, Xavier Maillard wrote: > in perhaps early 1990s, some keyboards do not have the arrow keys, or > that some applications (in particular, terminal applications) do not > necessarily support physical arrow keys by default. > > Today, i think more than 99.999% keyboards and applications support > the physical arrows keys by default. The availablity of arrow keys i > think is pretty much standard by mid 1990s, and their support in > applications including term emulators is probably standard by 2000. > > At work, I still have oldies that still do not support these > keys. What's more, directional keys are one of the dumbest > addition one could have thought off (in my opinion). The same > apply for numerical keypad: what are they useful for exactly ? Is > it that hard to press shift+& (for the azerty keyboard) to get a > 1 ? Or press C-b to move point left ? I do not think so. The numerical keypad, and the physical cursor moving keys, are technical superior to their counterparts in the main section of the keyboard for many applications. For example, if your job is data entry, the numerical keypad is much more efficient to operate than the numbers on top row of the main keys. I agree with that but all the job positions consisting in typing numerical data only, typing ZIP code is something that comes to mind (at least here in France), is done on a very simplified keypad with only numeric keys, and . They would not need anything but these keys. In the same way, arrow keys, and the dedicated function keys for page up/down, home/end keys, are superior to key combos in the main section because they involve single key press with a clear label, and their physical layout makes them more efficient to operate. On a laptop, PG-UP/PG-DOWN or even Home/End are often combos to type either. For example on my laptop, you have to press the Fn key + directional keys if you want them. In that case, C-a/C-e are a lot quicker to type than Fn+left or Fn+right. My laptop keyboard is not an exception. You can test these by, for example, try to type a quarter page of phone numbers in a yellow book. (this is assuming that you do touch type on the numerical keypads. (e.g. you are not a noob who refuse to learn )) Similarly, you can try to play pacman by using the arrow keys, as compared to using Alt+n Alt+p Alt+f Alt+b, and see which one is more efficient. The cool thing with Alt or Ctrl keys is this: they are doubled (and I can even add other Alt/Ctrl keys by changing my dumpkey setup). For example, here I have two Alt (r and l), three Ctrl keys (one by default plus Caps Lock changed to Ctrl and Alt+Menu which is also Ctrl for me). So if it comes that Alt-n or other is hard to type with one Alt key, I could try to do it with the other possibilities making such movement globally better than if I had to look at my keyboard keys to search the directional keys. Like Chris told, I do not like to leave the "home keys" when typing. My fingers know where to go with few movements and by trying to decrease the risk to get a RSI. That's what matter the most for me. I do not type with my 10 fingers but only 6 and I feel very comfortable like that. [I will have to finish reading the rest of your post later :)] Regards, Xavier -- http://www.gnu.org http://www.april.org http://www.lolica.org