Re: Oldest running Emacs version

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Kai Großjohann]

Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

>> like home.  The usual key bindings do what you expect them to, there's
>> paren matching, you can split windows with `C-x 2' and there's even
>> Dired.  ...Next, all you need is to discover that they both have Lisps 
>
> the macro language of the original ITS/RMS emacs was TECO. 

I understood it to mean that there is a Lisp for ITS.  It could
easily be misread that Emacs-for-ITS includes Lisp, though.
-- 
file-error; Data: (Opening input file no such file or directory ~/.signature)

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Jesper Harder]

Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

>> like home.  The usual key bindings do what you expect them to, there's
>> paren matching, you can split windows with `C-x 2' and there's even
>> Dired.  ...Next, all you need is to discover that they both have Lisps 
>
> the macro language of the original ITS/RMS emacs was TECO. 
> Bernie Greenberg written on Multics an MacLisp based "emacs
> derived" editor,

I wasn't saying that ITS Emacs was written Lisp, but that ITS had
Maclisp and TOPS-20 had Interlisp available.

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Niels Freimann]

Hi,

Hmm. its.svensson.org - hmm, it isn't a *real* ITS machine ;-) 

Its KLH10, a PDP-10 emulator, and "emacs" looks like Bernies Multics 
Emacs! 

You can download KLH10 from freebsd.org. freebsd performs very well 
on any IA32 PC.

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Martti Halminen]

Jesper Harder wrote:

> > the macro language of the original ITS/RMS emacs was TECO.
> > Bernie Greenberg written on Multics an MacLisp based "emacs
> > derived" editor,
> 
> I wasn't saying that ITS Emacs was written Lisp, but that ITS had
> Maclisp and TOPS-20 had Interlisp available.

TOPS-20 also had Maclisp and a few more Lisp implementations.

--

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Niels Freimann]

> like home.  The usual key bindings do what you expect them to, there's
> paren matching, you can split windows with `C-x 2' and there's even
> Dired.  ...Next, all you need is to discover that they both have Lisps 

the macro language of the original ITS/RMS emacs was TECO. 
Bernie Greenberg written on Multics an MacLisp based "emacs
derived" editor, soon followed by Gosling's Moclisp based UNIX text 
editor. Gosling's emacs became the ultimative code base of RMS's 
GNU/emacs. Soon later RMS was forced to to rewrite the code base 
out of legal considerations.

Therefore you are talking about rather recent improvements and 
not about the original ITS emacs. The sources of ITS emacs are 
downloadable in the internet, as well as a lot of comments. Reading
that making clear that GNU/emacs is a different program.

Oldest running Emacs version

[Luis Fernandes]

I'm wondering which version of Emacs is the oldest still currently
running. Please let us know.

(I would not be surprised if someone is still running 18.x; I would
be surprised at 17.x. I still have 19.34 installed (the best Emacs
ever released) on our system but have switched to 21.0.106 (the 21.1
pre-test) :)

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Jesper Harder]

Luis Fernandes <elf@ee.ryerson.ca> writes:

> I'm wondering which version of Emacs is the oldest still currently
> running. Please let us know.

twenex.org is running TOPS-20 with an Emacs identifying itself as:

   EMACS Editor, version 165 - type ^_ (the help character) for help.

its.svensson.org is runing ITS with an Emacs saying:

   EMACS Editor, version 162 - type Help(^_H) for help.

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Barry Margolin]

In article <m3k7d9aqjf.fsf@defun.localdomain>,
Jesper Harder  <harder@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>Luis Fernandes <elf@ee.ryerson.ca> writes:
>
>> I'm wondering which version of Emacs is the oldest still currently
>> running. Please let us know.
>
>twenex.org is running TOPS-20 with an Emacs identifying itself as:
>
>   EMACS Editor, version 165 - type ^_ (the help character) for help.
>
>its.svensson.org is runing ITS with an Emacs saying:
>
>   EMACS Editor, version 162 - type Help(^_H) for help.

Since this is gnu.emacs.help, I suspect the OP is mainly interested in GNU
Emacs.  ITS EMACS is a totally different beast (although it was written by
RMS as well).

-- 
Barry Margolin, barry.margolin@level3.com
Genuity Managed Services, a Level(3) Company, Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Jesper Harder]

Barry Margolin <barry.margolin@level3.com> writes:

> Jesper Harder  <harder@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>>twenex.org is running TOPS-20 with an Emacs identifying itself as:
>>
>>   EMACS Editor, version 165 - type ^_ (the help character) for help.
>>
>>its.svensson.org is runing ITS with an Emacs saying:
>>
>>   EMACS Editor, version 162 - type Help(^_H) for help.
>
> Since this is gnu.emacs.help, I suspect the OP is mainly interested
> in GNU Emacs.  ITS EMACS is a totally different beast (although it
> was written by RMS as well).

Yeah, but the interesting thing is that both of them feel very
familiar -- I think anyone who's used to a modern Emacs would have few
problems using the old versions.  The Emacs user interface hasn't
really changed that much.

Compare that to using ITS or TOPS-20.  

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Karl Eichwalder]

Jesper Harder <harder@myrealbox.com> writes:

> Yeah, but the interesting thing is that both of them feel very
> familiar -- I think anyone who's used to a modern Emacs would have few
> problems using the old versions.

I guess you never watched new Emacs users?  They heavily rely on the
menu system!

> The Emacs user interface hasn't really changed that much.

It was enhanced and new Emacs users take it for granted that menus and
mouse support is available :)

-- 
                                                         |      ,__o
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |    _-\_<,
ke@suse.de (work) / keichwa@gmx.net (home)               |   (*)/'(*)

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Jesper Harder]

Karl Eichwalder <keichwa@gmx.net> writes:

> Jesper Harder <harder@myrealbox.com> writes:
>
>> Yeah, but the interesting thing is that both of them feel very
>> familiar -- I think anyone who's used to a modern Emacs would have few
>> problems using the old versions.
>
> I guess you never watched new Emacs users?  They heavily rely on the
> menu system!

But those are minor details.  You login to an ITS or TOPS-20 box, and
it's a strange and unfamiliar place.  You stumble along, you don't
know the vernacular, you can't move a file or order a beer.

But then you see this familiar building, type emacs -- and it's almost
like home.  The usual key bindings do what you expect them to, there's
paren matching, you can split windows with `C-x 2' and there's even
Dired.  Now, wouldn't it be ungrateful to complain about missing
menues :-?

Next, all you need is to discover that they both have Lisps (Maclisp
and Interlisp, repectively), and you could actually start using them
for something interesting.

That's not so bad for an ancient operating system you've never used
before.

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Barry Margolin]

In article <m3ptmz32eu.fsf@defun.localdomain>,
Jesper Harder  <harder@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>Next, all you need is to discover that they both have Lisps (Maclisp
>and Interlisp, repectively), and you could actually start using them
>for something interesting.

ITS/TOPS-20 EMACS is customized in TECO, not Lisp.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barry.margolin@level3.com
Genuity Managed Services, a Level(3) Company, Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Niels Freimann]

On Monday 05 May 2003 21:53, Barry Margolin wrote:
> ITS/TOPS-20 EMACS is customized in TECO, not Lisp

I already mentioned that in my first message. *emacs* isn't 
ITS/TOPS-20 emacs, but Bernies Multics emacs, and the 
machine with the *running its" in real is a PC or something 
running an pdp-10 emulator. 

Guess we should close that chapter.

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Barry Margolin]

In article <mailman.5607.1052174541.21513.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>,
Niels Freimann  <nfreimann@firemail.de> wrote:
>On Monday 05 May 2003 21:53, Barry Margolin wrote:
>> ITS/TOPS-20 EMACS is customized in TECO, not Lisp
>
>I already mentioned that in my first message. *emacs* isn't 
>ITS/TOPS-20 emacs, but Bernies Multics emacs, and the 
>machine with the *running its" in real is a PC or something 
>running an pdp-10 emulator. 

Since Multics Emacs ran on Multics, and was never ported to any other OS, I
really doubt that this is what you're seeing.  It's almost certainly ITS
EMACS, which runs on PDP-10/20 machines running ITS or TOPS-20.  ITS EMACS
is the grand-daddy of all Emacs and Emacs-like editors.  They all share the
same basic commands (e.g. the ones you learn in the tutorial), as well as
the overall UI philosophy (buffers, major and minor modes, etc.), but
diverge when you start looking at the less commonly used features (like
they all have Dired, but differ in the commands that are available within
it).

This is mostly just due to normal evolutionary processes.  Development of
ITS EMACS and Multics Emacs stopped in the early 80's.  GNU Emacs was born
around that time, with most of the features that the predecessors had, and
has since had hundreds of developers adding things to it.  Throughout all
of this it has still retained much of the core; a time traveler coming from
1980 would have little difficulty using GNU Emacs.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barry.margolin@level3.com
Genuity Managed Services, a Level(3) Company, Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Niels Freimann]

On Tuesday 06 May 2003 01:08, Barry Margolin wrote:

> t's almost certainly ITS EMACS, which runs on PDP-10/20 machines running ITS 
> or TOPS-20.  

No, it cant be true. ITS editor macros was written entirely in TECO and 
not Lisp. It was ported to Tenex and TOPS-20 operating systems by Stallman 
and McMahon. Therefore  both the ITS and the TOPS-20 emacsens were TECO , 
and not maclisp (multics) or moclisp (unix), emacsens. What the posters found
on the pdp-10 emulator was not Richards ITS emacs. ITS was an experimental
OS of the MIT written by hackers. 

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Barry Margolin]

In article <mailman.5614.1052211157.21513.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>,
Niels Freimann  <nfreimann@firemail.de> wrote:
>On Tuesday 06 May 2003 01:08, Barry Margolin wrote:
>
>> t's almost certainly ITS EMACS, which runs on PDP-10/20 machines running ITS 
>> or TOPS-20.  
>
>No, it cant be true. ITS editor macros was written entirely in TECO and 
>not Lisp. It was ported to Tenex and TOPS-20 operating systems by Stallman 
>and McMahon. Therefore  both the ITS and the TOPS-20 emacsens were TECO , 
>and not maclisp (multics) or moclisp (unix), emacsens. What the posters found
>on the pdp-10 emulator was not Richards ITS emacs. ITS was an experimental
>OS of the MIT written by hackers. 

I know, I was there from 1979 to 1983.  The first EMACS I used was ITS
EMACS, then Multics Emacs.  Over the years I've also used Gosling (later
renamed Unipress) Emacs, Zimmerman's Emacs, ZWEI, Epsilon, and TV.

I don't know what you've got, but it's not Multics Emacs.  I was the last
maintainer of Multics Emacs, when I worked for Honeywell Bull until they
cancelled Multics development.  It was never ported to any other system.
It wouldn't have been impossible, but it would have been quite a bit of
work, because it made use of lots of Multics-specific features.

There are a few other Emacs-like editors for PDP-10's.  For instance, Mike
Kazar at CMU wrote FINE.  However, Craig Finseth's FAQ on Emacs
implementations doesn't list any of them that use Lisp as their extension
language.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barry.margolin@level3.com
Genuity Managed Services, a Level(3) Company, Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Bijan Soleymani]

Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

> On Tuesday 06 May 2003 01:08, Barry Margolin wrote:
> 
> > t's almost certainly ITS EMACS, which runs on PDP-10/20 machines running ITS 
> > or TOPS-20.  
> 
> No, it cant be true. ITS editor macros was written entirely in TECO and 
> not Lisp. It was ported to Tenex and TOPS-20 operating systems by Stallman 
> and McMahon. Therefore  both the ITS and the TOPS-20 emacsens were TECO , 
> and not maclisp (multics) or moclisp (unix), emacsens. What the posters found
> on the pdp-10 emulator was not Richards ITS emacs. ITS was an experimental
> OS of the MIT written by hackers. 

It was Richard Stallman's pdp-emacs (in TECO) running on ITS. The
whole point of having a pdp-10 emulator is to run ITS :) (some people
run twenex, I guess...)

Bijan

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Jym Dyer]

> ITS/TOPS-20 EMACS is customized in TECO, not Lisp.

=v= Customized in TECO, but used for editing and executing
Lisp.
    <_Jym_>

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Tim X]

>>>>> "Karl" == Karl Eichwalder <keichwa@gmx.net> writes:

 Karl> Jesper Harder <harder@myrealbox.com> writes:
 >> Yeah, but the interesting thing is that both of them feel very
 >> familiar -- I think anyone who's used to a modern Emacs would have
 >> few problems using the old versions.

 Karl> I guess you never watched new Emacs users?  They heavily rely
 Karl> on the menu system!

Ah! Is that what that thingy along the top of the scrren is! I suppose
you use one of those ratty things to access it? 

What about that funny 3d thingy along the left of the screen with the
little arro shape things at each end and the floaty blocky thingy
which moves up and down and gets smaller and smaller the more I write?
I suppose you use the ratty thing for that as well.

And while I'm on the topic, who was the bright spark who introduced a
third hand controlled device for the computer? I'm mean really, was he
some sort of mutant with three arms or something? I've got two
perfectly good feet which do nothing but sit under the desk all
day. I'd much prefer to be kicking some cat around under my desk to
access menus and other pointless GUI widgets than constantly moving
from one control to another with my hand on a rat!

Tim


-- 
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you 
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Niels Freimann]

On Saturday 03 May 2003 01:15, Jesper Harder wrote:
> twenex.org is running TOPS-20 with an Emacs identifying itself as:
>
>    EMACS Editor, version 165 - type ^_ (the help character) for help
>
> its.svensson.org is runing ITS with an Emacs saying:
>
>    EMACS Editor, version 162 - type Help(^_H) for help

how about porting both to gnu/linux?

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Luis Fernandes]

>>>>> "harder" == Jesper Harder <harder@myrealbox.com> writes:

    harder> twenex.org is running TOPS-20 with an Emacs identifying

    harder> its.svensson.org is runing ITS with an Emacs saying:

Is anyone actually using emacs to do stuff (write software, read
email, all the usual stuff emacs was used for) on these boxen, or are
they just for nostalgia's sake?

What does the lastlog say? :)

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Bijan Soleymani]

Luis Fernandes <elf@ee.ryerson.ca> writes:

> >>>>> "harder" == Jesper Harder <harder@myrealbox.com> writes:
> 
>     harder> twenex.org is running TOPS-20 with an Emacs identifying
> 
>     harder> its.svensson.org is runing ITS with an Emacs saying:
> 
> Is anyone actually using emacs to do stuff (write software, read
> email, all the usual stuff emacs was used for) on these boxen, or are
> they just for nostalgia's sake?
> 
> What does the lastlog say? :)

I run ITS emacs at home sometimes. There's a pretty decent emulator
somewhere on the net. I think that's what its.svensson.org is running.

Bijan

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Bijan Soleymani]

Niels Freimann <nfreimann@firemail.de> writes:

> On Saturday 03 May 2003 01:15, Jesper Harder wrote:
> > twenex.org is running TOPS-20 with an Emacs identifying itself as:
> >
> >    EMACS Editor, version 165 - type ^_ (the help character) for help
> >
> > its.svensson.org is runing ITS with an Emacs saying:
> >
> >    EMACS Editor, version 162 - type Help(^_H) for help
> 
> how about porting both to gnu/linux?

Could happen. As far as I know both are written in TECO. So mostly all
one needs is to get TECO up and running on GNU/Linux.

Bijan

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Luis Fernandes]

    me> I'm wondering which version of Emacs is the oldest still
    me> currently running. Please let us know.

    me> (I would not be surprised if someone is still running 18.x; I
    me> would be surprised at 17.x. I still have 19.34 installed (the
    me> best Emacs ever released) on our system but have switched to
    me> 21.0.106 (the 21.1 pre-test) :)

In hindsight, I see that perhaps I should have worded the question
differently. :)

What I want to know is the oldest version of Emacs *still in use*.
You know someone who refuses to upgrade their Emacs to the latest and
are still running the version they first encountered.  For example,
someone located the sources to Gnus 2.0 (they're up on gnus.org now)
and perhaps this "stubborn" person is using it to read USENET on
Emacs 18.x-- that's what I was interested in.

>From a personal example, i skipped Emacs 20.x entirely because of the
Mule-Wars and happily lived with 19.34 for the longest time.

(I originally forgot to xpost to comp.emacs, now added; the more the
merrier :)

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Brian Masinick]

Luis Fernandes <elf@ee.ryerson.ca> writes:

>     me> I'm wondering which version of Emacs is the oldest still
>     me> currently running. Please let us know.
>
>     me> (I would not be surprised if someone is still running 18.x; I
>     me> would be surprised at 17.x. I still have 19.34 installed (the
>     me> best Emacs ever released) on our system but have switched to
>     me> 21.0.106 (the 21.1 pre-test) :)
>
> In hindsight, I see that perhaps I should have worded the question
> differently. :)
>
> What I want to know is the oldest version of Emacs *still in use*.
> You know someone who refuses to upgrade their Emacs to the latest and
> are still running the version they first encountered.  For example,
> someone located the sources to Gnus 2.0 (they're up on gnus.org now)
> and perhaps this "stubborn" person is using it to read USENET on
> Emacs 18.x-- that's what I was interested in.
>
> From a personal example, i skipped Emacs 20.x entirely because of the
> Mule-Wars and happily lived with 19.34 for the longest time.
>
> (I originally forgot to xpost to comp.emacs, now added; the more the
> merrier :)

On one hand, I use both GNU Emacs 21.2 (or 21.3) or XEmacs
21.4.12 (or a similar variant), depending on which system I
happen to be logged into at any given moment.  I have a slight
bias toward GNU Emacs, but I have no aversion to either one, and
I use both of them often.

I can't remember how long ago it was, but I happened to come
across a GNU Emacs 18.55 or 19.57 implementation.  Though my very
first introduction to Emacs actually happened on a MULTICS system
and the version was prior to the creation of GNU Emacs, I
actually started using GNU Emacs regularly around the time that
18.55 came out.  I probably used 18.55 for around a year, then
moved to 18.57, 18.58 briefly, and 18.59 before starting to use
the 19 releases.  I probably used 19.28 and 19.34 more than any
other releases in that release cycle.  I think I've used all of
the version 20 releases and I've definitely used all of the
version 21 releases.

Way back in version 18, there were really basic X11 capabilities
that were implemented through the direct use of X11 Xlib calls.
As such, performance was pretty good, and overhead was modest,
compared to today's software, but the capabilities of the
graphical interface were rather limited.  The Epoch project and
the Lucid Emacs project were initiated to improve the X support.
For better or for worse, that's where the separation came between
the GNU Emacs and the XEmacs projects.

gatekeeper.dec.com, accessible through anonymous FTP, contains
many versions of GNU Emacs software.  The oldest version they
still have available is a version of 19.34.

Hope this provides you with some useful information!

-- 
Brian Masinick
mailto:masinick@yahoo.com

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Patrick Scheible]

Some of the folks running TOPS-20 under emulated PDP-10s have teco
emacs from the late 70s in use.  Why?  Maybe Gnu Emacs doesn't run or
would need porting, maybe they don't have a good C compiler, maybe
they just like the historical feel of it.  If you're looking for
further info, you could add alt.sys.pdp10 and I'm sure someone would
know more.

-- Patrick

Re: Oldest running Emacs version

[Massimiliano Mirra - bard]

Luis Fernandes <elf@ee.ryerson.ca> writes:

> What I want to know is the oldest version of Emacs *still in use*.
> You know someone who refuses to upgrade their Emacs to the latest and
> are still running the version they first encountered.  For example,
> someone located the sources to Gnus 2.0 (they're up on gnus.org now)
> and perhaps this "stubborn" person is using it to read USENET on
> Emacs 18.x-- that's what I was interested in.

Well, if refusing to throw away an old 486/4mb laptop and therefore
trying to use Emacs 18.59 counts as stubborness, here I am.

I say `trying' because I managed to compile it on ol' Debian slink,
but upon running the terminal gets scrambled.  If any luckier stubborn
person is reading this, I'll sing him a praise if he'll share the
magic formula.


Massimiliano