From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Fredrik Staxeng Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: M-TAB already used by KDE Date: 18 Dec 2002 22:46:00 +0100 Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+gnu-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <1mr8cfq9uv.fsf@Tempo.Update.UU.SE> References: <3dfe3ea4.1245206@news.cis.dfn.de> <1my96ndvtq.fsf@Tempo.Update.UU.SE> <84n0n3cbvn.fsf@lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1040248326 20608 80.91.224.249 (18 Dec 2002 21:52:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 21:52:06 +0000 (UTC) Return-path: Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18Om6k-0005Lq-00 for ; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 22:52:02 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 18Om5J-0002xu-05 for gnu-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:50:33 -0500 Original-Newsgroups: comp.emacs,gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 67 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: news.update.uu.se Original-X-Trace: puffinus.its.uu.se 1040247001 news.update.uu.se (18 Dec 2002 22:30:01 +0100) Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news01.chello.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!puffinus.its.uu.se Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu comp.emacs:76519 gnu.emacs.help:108268 Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+gnu-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:4797 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:4797 kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes: >Fredrik Staxeng writes: > >> kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes: >> >>>I've written a little patch for Emacs (which will be in 21.4, whenever >>>that comes out) that allows you to tell Emacs to swap Alt and Meta. >> >> The default should be to treat them synonymously. > >Really? Hm. I've seen some Alt bindings here and there... I have only seen iso-transl. But binding Alt instead of Meta assumes that Alt is distinct from Meta. If you look at the reality of existing X keyboard maps: PC/101: |Crtl| |Alt | | Space | |Alt | |Ctrl| PC/104: |Ctrl| |Win| |Alt | | Space | |Alt | |Win| |Menu| |Ctrl| Type 5: |Ctrl| |Alt| | <> | | Space | | <> | |Comp| |AltGr| Type 5/PC: |Lock| |Alt| | <> | | Space | | <> | |Comp| |AltGr| The <> key send Meta, and users of course expect it to works as a Meta key in Emacs. The Alt key is distinct, and can be used for secondary functions. On the other hand, on the PC, it's best to use the Alt key for Meta functions. It's there on all keyboards. It lets people freely move between systems without rewiring their spinal cords. (If you assign Meta to the Windows key, the ICCCM model breaks this. Of course, that is exactly what the pc104 keymap did). The best any program can do, is to use only one modifier, and make both Alt and Meta invoke that modifier. Of course, there should be a way to use the full capability of _any_ keyboard. But because of the historical mistakes, it can't be done "out-of-the-box". >> The proper way would be to have two settings, "Alt is really Super" and >> "Meta is really Super". > >Actually, there will be variables x-meta-keysym, x-alt-keysym, >x-hyper-keysym and x-super-keysym. The value of each variable can be >meta, alt, hyper, or super. Or nil. If the default of x-meta-keysym is '(meta alt), then I am happy. A minor quibble: I think that the x-alt-keysym is superfluous, and only serves to perpetrate the confusion. >The interpretation is as follows: if the x-hyper-keysym variable is >super, then Emacs will interpret Super_L and Super_R (are there two >such keys?) as Hyper internally. A Symbolics keyboard has two each of Control, Meta, Super, Hyper and Symbol. I don't remember the LMI keyboard. These keyboards are not common enough to be relevant for the present discussion. Of course, there is always the pressure to make Emacs conform to the Windows keyboard bindings. The present discussion, and the existence cua-mode proves this. Before moving in that direction, you should realize that the Windows users won't be happy with Emacs until it conforms fully. That is C-n means 'New File', create a new buffer called "Untitled-n', and switch to it. Do it six times in a row, and you are in "Untitled-6". -- Fredrik Stax\"ang | rot13: sfgk@hcqngr.hh.fr