new help message in Emacs 25

new help message in Emacs 25

[Emanuel Berg]

Whenever I do M-x and type a command name and
have it executed, it says, if, for example, the
command is 'insert-date', that, you can also
run it with

    M-x i-da RET

I like the similar message when there is a key
assigned to the command, that makes sense to
me, but this doesn't as it creates a third
"name" or whatever for the command in my brain.

I want it to be either explicit, or key, or
explicit with a reminder of the key.

This half-baked version is neither
muscle memory/finger habits *nor*
literal memory ('insert-date' I can read,
write, and remember, but what is 'i-da'?)

TEHO obviously, so my question is, how do
I disable this hint w/o disabling the
"key hint" version as well?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

RE: new help message in Emacs 25

[Drew Adams]

> Whenever I do M-x and type a command name and
> have it executed, it says, if, for example, the
> command is 'insert-date', that, you can also
> run it with
> 
>     M-x i-da RET
> 
> I like the similar message when there is a key
> assigned to the command, that makes sense to
> me, but this doesn't as it creates a third
> "name" or whatever for the command in my brain.
> 
> I want it to be either explicit, or key, or
> explicit with a reminder of the key.
> 
> This half-baked version is neither
> muscle memory/finger habits *nor*
> literal memory ('insert-date' I can read,
> write, and remember, but what is 'i-da'?)
> 
> TEHO obviously, so my question is, how do
> I disable this hint w/o disabling the
> "key hint" version as well?

Good question.

Yes, option `extended-command-suggest-shorter' controls
this.

Why this wasn't rolled into option `suggest-key-bindings'
(e.g. as another possible setting) I don't know.

Emacs didn't used to provide the `M-x some-abbreviation'
information.  That was added a release or two ago.  The
behavior was what you get if you customize option
`extended-command-suggest-shorter' to nil.

RE: new help message in Emacs 25

[Drew Adams]

> Good question.
> 
> Yes, option `extended-command-suggest-shorter' controls
> this.
> 
> Why this wasn't rolled into option `suggest-key-bindings'
> (e.g. as another possible setting) I don't know.
> 
> Emacs didn't used to provide the `M-x some-abbreviation'
> information.  That was added a release or two ago.  The
> behavior was what you get if you customize option
> `extended-command-suggest-shorter' to nil.

BTW, I just submitted an enhancement request wrt this.

https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=35309

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Emanuel Berg]

Drew Adams wrote:

> BTW, I just submitted an enhancement request wrt this.
>
> https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=35309

Yes, I agree.


PS. How do you set the "Severity" (here
    "minor") when you report bugs? DS.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

RE: new help message in Emacs 25

[Drew Adams]

> > BTW, I just submitted an enhancement request wrt this.
> 
> Yes, I agree.
> 
> PS. How do you set the "Severity" (here
>     "minor") when you report bugs? DS.

No idea.  Someone who takes a look at the report and
decides to take some action on it (which might be just
to close it or set the severity, I guess).

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Noam Postavsky]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 21:05, Emanuel Berg <moasenwood@zoho.eu> wrote:

> PS. How do you set the "Severity" (here
>     "minor") when you report bugs? DS.

You can set the severity by starting your report with the line

Severity: minor

See https://debbugs.gnu.org/Reporting.html#severities

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Emanuel Berg]

Noam Postavsky wrote:

> You can set the severity by starting your
> report with the line
>
> Severity: minor
>
> See
> https://debbugs.gnu.org/Reporting.html#severities

Thanks, you seem to be quite right: it is
nothing less than a "pseudo-header" :) [1]

Here are the different severity levels one can
assign it according to RFC I mean this URL. [2]

    critical
    grave
    serious
    important
    normal
    minor
    wishlist

I can't wait to find another bug and put
pseudo-header on my hacker resume! :)


[1] https://debbugs.gnu.org/Reporting.html#pseudoheader
[2] https://debbugs.gnu.org/Developer.html#severities

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Michael Albinus]

Emanuel Berg <moasenwood@zoho.eu> writes:

Hi Emanuel,

> Here are the different severity levels one can
> assign it according to RFC I mean this URL. [2]
>
>     critical
>     grave
>     serious
>     important
>     normal
>     minor
>     wishlist
>
> I can't wait to find another bug and put
> pseudo-header on my hacker resume! :)
>
> [2] https://debbugs.gnu.org/Developer.html#severities

Severities critical and grave are not used in the emacs project on
debbugs.gnu.org. Well, there are some few grave bugs, all of them
archived. But that's rather an accident.

Best regards, Michael.

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Noam Postavsky]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 04:00, Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> wrote:

> >     critical
> >     grave
> >     serious
> >     important
> >     normal
> >     minor
> >     wishlist

> Severities critical and grave are not used in the emacs project on
> debbugs.gnu.org. Well, there are some few grave bugs, all of them
> archived. But that's rather an accident.

Maybe we should though, sometimes I feel like the severities are kind
of squished. Currently it's very seldom that a bug is marked any
higher than "normal", maybe it would be different if there more "room"
in the upward direction.

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Michael Albinus]

Noam Postavsky <npostavs@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Noam,

>> >     critical
>> >     grave
>> >     serious
>> >     important
>> >     normal
>> >     minor
>> >     wishlist
>
>> Severities critical and grave are not used in the emacs project on
>> debbugs.gnu.org. Well, there are some few grave bugs, all of them
>> archived. But that's rather an accident.
>
> Maybe we should though, sometimes I feel like the severities are kind
> of squished. Currently it's very seldom that a bug is marked any
> higher than "normal", maybe it would be different if there more "room"
> in the upward direction.

There are serious and important in the upward direction, so we have 4
severities at all. I doubt, that 6 severities instead of 4 severities
would be a big win. And I have also the impression, that the severity
does not correlate always with the priorities people apply when solving
bugs. Including me, I'm looking rather for bugs which are related to
"my" packages, and/or which uncover an interesting problem.

IIRC, bug severities were discussed 10+ years ago, when debbugs.gnu.org
was established. But I cannot find this in the archives.

Best regards, Michael.

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Emanuel Berg]

Michael Albinus wrote:

> There are serious and important in the upward
> direction, so we have 4 severities at all.
> I doubt, that 6 severities instead of 4
> severities would be a big win.

How about 7 instead of 4? The 7th could then be
"catastrophicaldisastrous"! Like, not so long
ago, when Emacs crashed on me, with a segfault
C error message (if that is a proper, proper as
in descriptive, description of what was
outputted), when Emacs crashed on me simply
because I didn't have (package-initialize)
first in my ~/.emacs , but instead in a file
that was loaded later, a file that related to
[M]ELPA packages! [1]

When I brought the crash situation up, it
received limited attention save from one
person, while another person closed the case by
saying the issue is perhaps already solved, in
Emacs 26!

But in retrospect, I'm happy to put that whole
debacle on myself. I should have filed it
a bug, with the correct pseudo-header up front!


[1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/emacs-init/elpa.el
    Yeah, I should rename that file...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Noam Postavsky]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 08:12, Emanuel Berg <moasenwood@zoho.eu> wrote:

> When I brought the crash situation up, it
> received limited attention save from one
> person, while another person closed the case by
> saying the issue is perhaps already solved, in
> Emacs 26!
>
> But in retrospect, I'm happy to put that whole
> debacle on myself. I should have filed it
> a bug, with the correct pseudo-header up front!

If the bug is already solved, it should be closed regardless of what
severity you put on it.

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Emanuel Berg]

Noam Postavsky wrote:

>> When I brought the crash situation up, it
>> received limited attention save from one
>> person, while another person closed the case
>> by saying the issue is perhaps already
>> solved, in Emacs 26! But in retrospect, I'm
>> happy to put that whole debacle on myself.
>> I should have filed it a bug, with the
>> correct pseudo-header up front!
>
> If the bug is already solved, it should be
> closed regardless of what severity you put
> on it.

It was suggested it _might_ be.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Emanuel Berg]

Michael Albinus wrote:

> Severities critical and grave are not used in
> the emacs project on debbugs.gnu.org. Well,
> there are some few grave bugs, all of them
> archived. But that's rather an accident.

Is that so?

Then perhaps we ought to send the maintainer,
er, the webmaster of [1] a, ehm, "note" asking
for a short <p>aragraph, emplaning the reduced
Emacs criticality levels, but still show 'em
all in one swee</p>?

I mean, no rule without an exception, right?


[1] https://debbugs.gnu.org/Developer.html#severities

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Michael Albinus]

Emanuel Berg <moasenwood@zoho.eu> writes:

>> Severities critical and grave are not used in
>> the emacs project on debbugs.gnu.org. Well,
>> there are some few grave bugs, all of them
>> archived. But that's rather an accident.
>
> Is that so?
>
> Then perhaps we ought to send the maintainer,
> er, the webmaster of [1] a, ehm, "note" asking
> for a short <p>aragraph, emplaning the reduced
> Emacs criticality levels, but still show 'em
> all in one swee</p>?

Please do :-) Like Noam, I'm one of the "webmasters" ('tho we don't call
ourselves this way).

The software on debbugs.gnu.org is cloned from Debian. There are small
adaptions, but not in every place which would benefit fom.

Best regards, Michael.

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Glenn Morris]

>> Then perhaps we ought to send the maintainer, er, the webmaster of
>> [1] a, ehm, "note" asking for a short <p>aragraph, emplaning the
>> reduced Emacs criticality levels, but still show 'em all in one
>> swee</p>?

That would be an inappropriate place to do so, since those are generic
instructions for all the packages using debbugs.gnu.org. Some of them do
use those higher severities. The appropriate place would be

https://debbugs.gnu.org/Emacs.html

But personally I do not think it is worth bothering.

IMO https://debbugs.gnu.org/Reporting.html covers it

    If a report is of a particularly serious bug, or is merely a feature
    request that, you can set the severity level of the bug as you
    report it. This is not required, however, and the developers will
    assign an appropriate severity level to your report if you do not.

AFAIK Emacs has made no deliberate decision to avoid the higher
severities, it is just they very rarely seem applicable/needed.

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Emanuel Berg]

Glenn Morris wrote:

> If a report is of a particularly serious bug,
> or is merely a feature request that, you can
> set the severity level of the bug as you
> report it. This is not required, however, and
> the developers will assign an appropriate
> severity level to your report if you do not.

Yeah, the whole thing seems a bit arbitrary...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Emanuel Berg]

Noam Postavsky wrote:

> You can set the severity by starting your
> report with the line
>
> Severity: minor
>
> See https://debbugs.gnu.org/Reporting.html#severities

Thanks, you seem to be quite right: it is
nothing less than a "pseudo-header" :) [1]

Here are the different severity levels one can
assign it according to RFC I mean this URL. [2]

    critical
    grave
    serious
    important
    normal
    minor
    wishlist

I can't wait to find another bug and put
pseudo-header on my hacker resume! :)


[1] https://debbugs.gnu.org/Reporting.html#pseudoheader
[2] https://debbugs.gnu.org/Developer.html#severities

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Emanuel Berg]

Drew Adams wrote:

> Yes, option
> `extended-command-suggest-shorter'
> controls this.
>
> Why this wasn't rolled into option
> `suggest-key-bindings' (e.g. as another
> possible setting) I don't know.
>
> Emacs didn't used to provide the `M-x
> some-abbreviation' information. That was
> added a release or two ago. The behavior was
> what you get if you customize option
> `extended-command-suggest-shorter' to nil.

... ?

I don't have `extended-command-suggest-shorter'
(at all), if by "option" you mean "a variable
the user is supposed to fiddle with"?

I have `suggest-key-bindings' tho as `t', which
makes sense.


GNU Emacs 25.1.1 (arm-unknown-linux-gnueabihf,
GTK+ Version 3.22.11) of 2017-09-16, modified
by Debian

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

RE: new help message in Emacs 25

[Drew Adams]

> > Yes, option
> > `extended-command-suggest-shorter'
> > controls this.
> > ...
> > Emacs didn't used to provide the `M-x
> > some-abbreviation' information. That was
> > added a release or two ago. The behavior was
> > what you get if you customize option
> > `extended-command-suggest-shorter' to nil.
> 
> ... ?
> 
> I don't have `extended-command-suggest-shorter'
> (at all), if by "option" you mean "a variable
> the user is supposed to fiddle with"?

Yes, it looks like it was introduced in Emacs 26,
but the new echoing of an `M-x <some-abbreviation>'
reminder was introduced in Emacs 25.  Perhaps
someone reported an enhancement request because
she, like you, didn't care for the new behavior.

> I have `suggest-key-bindings' tho as `t', which
> makes sense.

Re: new help message in Emacs 25

[Emanuel Berg]

Drew Adams wrote:

> Yes, it looks like it was introduced in Emacs
> 26, but the new echoing of an `M-x
> <some-abbreviation>' reminder was introduced
> in Emacs 25. Perhaps someone reported an
> enhancement request because she, like you,
> didn't care for the new behavior.

If so, I'd like to date her. We seem to be
a good match.

Now, IIUC there is nothing for me to do as I am
not pleased with the "new behavior", but OTOH
cannot disable it and still be using the
supplied Emacs version for this system...

Save for one thing, perhaps, and that is to
assign shortcuts to all those functions - that
means, I'll get the key suggestion instead!

And besides, I always wanted more
shortcuts anyway!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573