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From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:47:54 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <01c52c71$Blat.v2.4$400dcce0@zahav.net.il> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <opsnvd2glkp52o26@home-ca12fabbc0> (message from PT on Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:40:54 +0100)

> From: PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com>
> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:40:54 +0100
> 
> > C-h t
> 
> That's exactly what I meant. The key bindings shown in the tutorial are  
> leftovers from a world when there were no arrow keys on keyboards.

??? When was the last time you've read the tutorial?  The current
version does mention the arrow keys, and it also explains the reasons
why the tutorial teaches the alternate key bindings.  (One reason it
does not mention -- that the arrow keys should be known to everyone --
is so obvious that I'd expect each user to not expect these keys to be
mentioned in the tutorial.)

If you think the tutorial text should be changed somehow to be more
friendly to newbies, please suggest specific changes to it (but be
sure to read the current version first!), and send your suggestions to
emacs-devel@gnu.org.  TIA.

> I may sound like a heretic, but I don't think a newbie should learn new  
> keybindings for cursor movement.

Newbies don't _have_ to learn them, but the tutorial explains why
Emacs developers _suggest_ that they do.

> VI is not a more usual editor. KEdit is. Notepad is.

If someone is happy with Notepad, they probably don't need Emacs.  And
btw, Notepad doesn't have _any_ key bindings besides the arrow keys,
CUA cut/paste ones (which Emacs supports), and F3 for FindNext.  So a
convert from Notepad should have no problem learning the Emacs
keybindings.

> >> 	F1 for help, F2 for save file, F3 for load file, etc.
> >
> > Where did you find these keybindings?  I've never seen them!  You call
> > them Familiar???
> 
> You are probably a Unix veteran. They are familiar to anyone on Windows  
> for example and much more friendly than C-x C-f.

Please be specific; slogans are not useful when you are criticizing a
UI.  So please give us a list of Windows programs that use those F1-F3
bindings, which make them ``familiar to anyone on Windows''.  Emacs
does support "F1 for help", as you probably should have known, so only
F2, F3, and whatever hides under ``etc.'' are the issue.

> The idea is to relieve the initial pain of meeting Emacs the first time,  
> so that they don't give it up in disgust, before they get to know it  
> better.

That's a goal that Emacs developers will always applaud.  But please
give specific suggestions, and please post them to
emacs-devel@gnu.org, since most Emacs developers don't read this
forum.

  parent reply	other threads:[~2005-03-19 10:47 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 123+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2005-03-18 21:12 Making Emacs more newbie friendly PT
2005-03-18 21:57 ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-19  5:40   ` PT
2005-03-19  7:57     ` rgb
2005-03-19  9:51       ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 10:46         ` Steinar Børmer
2005-03-19 11:01           ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20  0:42             ` Steinar Børmer
2005-03-19 20:16         ` Miles Bader
     [not found]         ` <mailman.4427.1111265353.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 20:53           ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 10:56       ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]       ` <mailman.4380.1111231068.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 14:23         ` PT
2005-03-19 15:08           ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 15:45           ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 10:47     ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2005-03-19 14:34       ` nfreimann
2005-03-19 15:49         ` Gian Uberto Lauri
2005-03-19 16:13           ` nfreimann
     [not found]           ` <mailman.4406.1111250911.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 19:12             ` Shawn Betts
2005-03-19 19:35               ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 21:00                 ` Miles Bader
     [not found]                 ` <mailman.4435.1111267700.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 22:42                   ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 15:50         ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 12:42     ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2005-03-19 14:56       ` PT
2005-03-19 15:37         ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 17:45         ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2005-03-19 18:07           ` PT
2005-03-19 18:15             ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 18:24               ` PT
2005-03-19 18:34                 ` David Kastrup
2005-04-09 18:01         ` Nathan Hess
     [not found]     ` <mailman.4378.1111230698.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 13:41       ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-19 14:31         ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 16:04           ` Lee Sau Dan
2005-03-20 12:33             ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 17:33               ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2005-03-21  7:39                 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-21 10:07                   ` Joe Corneli
2005-03-21 11:27                   ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2005-03-22 11:25                     ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-21 11:54                   ` Klaus Straubinger
2005-03-21 12:37                   ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20 12:27           ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 12:47             ` Jason Rumney
2005-03-21 18:30               ` Drew Adams
2005-03-19 15:37         ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 17:09         ` Stefan Monnier
2005-03-20 12:42           ` Brian Elmegaard
     [not found]         ` <mailman.4399.1111247782.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 12:39           ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 20:27             ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]             ` <mailman.4504.1111351877.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 21:05               ` David Kastrup
2005-03-21  8:11               ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-21 19:56                 ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                 ` <mailman.4626.1111436194.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-22 11:33                   ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-19 14:52       ` PT
2005-03-19 15:14         ` David Hansen
2005-03-19 15:33         ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 16:00           ` PT
2005-03-19 16:22             ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 16:57               ` PT
2005-03-19 17:16                 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 17:55                   ` PT
2005-03-19 18:03                     ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20 12:52                       ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 17:44                         ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20 21:49                           ` Alan Mackenzie
2005-03-22 11:46                             ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-22 13:09                               ` David Kastrup
2005-03-23  7:29                                 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-21  8:17                           ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-19 18:01                   ` PT
2005-03-19 20:45                     ` Miles Bader
2005-03-20 17:43                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2005-03-19 18:05                 ` Shawn Betts
2005-03-19 18:15                   ` PT
2005-03-20 17:51                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2005-03-19 17:17             ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 23:16             ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-20 11:49           ` Steinar Børmer
2005-03-20 13:06             ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-19 16:05         ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 18:16         ` Shawn Betts
2005-03-19 23:34           ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-20  0:45           ` David Kastrup
     [not found]         ` <mailman.4404.1111249572.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 11:51           ` Steinar Børmer
2005-03-20 16:31         ` ken
     [not found]         ` <mailman.4485.1111338015.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 23:35           ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-21  4:44             ` Sean Richards
2005-03-21 11:00               ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-22 20:33                 ` Sean Richards
2005-03-19 15:45     ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-19 15:54       ` Gian Uberto Lauri
2005-03-19 17:25       ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]       ` <mailman.4413.1111254615.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 23:33         ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-20  4:37           ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-20  9:07             ` Gian Uberto Lauri
2005-03-20 11:30               ` nfreimann
2005-03-20 12:16                 ` Gian Uberto Lauri
     [not found]                 ` <mailman.4474.1111322832.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 18:04                   ` Joe Bush
2005-03-21  8:23                     ` Brian Elmegaard
     [not found]               ` <mailman.4470.1111319220.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 13:01                 ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-20 17:37                 ` David Kastrup
     [not found]           ` <mailman.4443.1111294657.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 15:29             ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-20 15:58               ` Joe Corneli
     [not found]               ` <mailman.4479.1111335526.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 20:33                 ` Jochen Küpper
2005-03-20 23:50                   ` Joe Corneli
2005-03-20 12:59       ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 17:45         ` David Kastrup
2005-03-21  8:19           ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-19 18:42     ` Shawn Betts
2005-03-19 19:27       ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20  6:55       ` Joe Corneli
2005-03-18 22:11 ` Peter Dyballa
2005-03-19 17:17 ` Jason Rumney
2005-03-19 18:10   ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-22  1:59     ` Cristian Gutierrez
2005-03-21  9:56 ` Mathias Dahl
2005-03-21 19:23 ` Peter K. Lee
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2005-03-21 12:53 nfreimann
2005-03-21 15:22 ` Joe Corneli
     [not found] <mailman.4566.1111411378.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-21 13:21 ` Klaus Straubinger
2005-03-21 21:44 ` Miles Bader

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